Bobby Folsom
Veteran
Posts:261
IMAC #: 2073
IMAC Region: SC
 |
| 21 Jul 2011 17:31 |
|
Have any of you guys read or kept up with the thread that discusses low attendance at IMAC events?
We (IMAC BOD and general membership) have already discussed a lot of the comments but Dean Nistetter has put together a concise bulleted list that sums up the comments to date. Below are his comments:
Dean Nistetter’s respone:
Ideas that would improve IMAC (from my perspective):
1• Sequences in Advanced and Unlimited have become a “Snapfest”. Stop this nonsense! No need to have more than 3-4 snaps in a sequence to test a pilot’s skills for that maneuver. It’s ironic to me that even though how to do a proper snap is an endlessly debated and controversial topic that there’s one in almost every element.
2• Rotate where the NATS is held geographically. This would allow more people to attend at least once in a while who would otherwise never go because of distance.
3• I know this one is a pipe dream but kill sound scores, ACS, pilot figure & instrument panel requirements. These have nothing to do with flying skills and usually force us to equip our planes in a way that we otherwise wouldn’t.
4• Allow for non-Aresti type maneuvers in our sequences. Someone already said that our planes are capable of so much more which is very true.
5• Find ways to retain our veteran pilots. To me this is an IMAC killer for many reasons. If we had a larger contingent of seasoned pilots I believe attracting newer participants would solve itself.
6• Reestablish a defined box to fly in and maybe even add a center pole to fly against. I can’t believe I just said that as I used to be against these things. However, my opinion has changed since I started flying some Pattern contests who have a box and center pole. It makes you fly with more position control and it’s a challenge that I think makes you a better overall pilot. Also, it’s not as subjective in judging as ACS, etc.
7• Improve clarity and definition of the 10% rule or do away with it altogether.
8• Do away with the SACB and let the IMAC BOD have ultimate decision authority. I know this is another pipe dream and will never happen but I think the Membership would be more involved with governance and better represented if this were the case.
9• Let the IMAC Membership actually vote for an outcome on major issues. Only active Members should be able to vote.
I especially like his first and second commnets! Maybe we can work on this?
Bobby |
|
|
|
|
Silver Fox
MVP
Posts:2874
IMAC #: 1294
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 22 Jul 2011 11:33 |
|
Bobby... I'm really happy that you like the first two points... For the "uninformed" please take a look at what is REALLY happening in full scale aerobatic competition. Here is a link to the 2009 UNLIMITED WORLD CHAMPION, Renaud Ecalle's (unfortunately now deceased) flight program. It consists of 9 figures with a K value of 420K AND has in 14 Snap Rolls. www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7cV3mse0TM...r_embedded This may "OPEN" some eyes to the REALITY that exists. Wayne |
|
| One thing you can give and still keep...is your word. |
|
|
Kevin Wilson
All Star
Posts:897
IMAC #: 5341
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 22 Jul 2011 13:11 |
|
I find snaps have been the most difficult maneuver to learn and perform consistently, and I absolutely love them. Done well, they add so much to a sequence and I would not suggest removing, or minimizing them. There are so many variations such as fractional snaps, pos neg, etc. that they ARE a true test of pilots skill.
I like idea #2. Not sure if it is feasible, but I like it.
Sound and ACS have been beaten to death.
As for non-Aresti maneuvers - why? We fly scale aerobatics, not pattern. |
|
| ARD - Florida |
|
|
Silver Fox
MVP
Posts:2874
IMAC #: 1294
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 22 Jul 2011 13:18 |
|
Posted By Kevin Wilson on 22 Jul 2011 13:11
I find snaps have been the most difficult maneuver to learn and perform consistently, and I absolutely love them. Done well, they add so much to a sequence and I would not suggest removing, or minimizing them. There are so many variations such as fractional snaps, pos neg, etc. that they ARE a true test of pilots skill.
I like idea #2. Not sure if it is feasible, but I like it.
Sound and ACS have been beaten to death.
As for non-Aresti maneuvers - why? We fly scale aerobatics, not pattern.
Errrr.... Ammmmmm....Kevin... Somehow what you say makes TOTAL SENSE. Wayne |
|
| One thing you can give and still keep...is your word. |
|
|
Bobby Folsom
Veteran
Posts:261
IMAC #: 2073
IMAC Region: SC
|
| 22 Jul 2011 13:29 |
|
Humm, maybe most of the grumbling comes from those guys that want to win but don't!!
Bobby |
|
|
|
|
Steve Graham
Rookie
Posts:53
IMAC #: 6226
IMAC Region: SW
|
| 23 Jul 2011 10:53 |
|
Inappropriate on a couple of levels Bobby.
First, when you use the word "grumbling" it comes across, to me anyway, as a dismissal of a child who is complaining unnecessarily and assumes there is no effort on the part of the individuals posting to actually help or contribute.
Second, when you suggest the grumbling is coming from people who want to win but can't you are out right dismissing the discussion by suggesting it's coming from losers.
I am the CC for the IMAC event that will be held in a couple of weeks in Denver. I am new to IMAC in the last year. At the contests I have been to I have had a great time and all the more experienced pilots have been nothing but encouraging and helpful with tons of advice. The fact that there are 4 contests in Denver this year is a complete anomaly that I hope to convert into a tradition. At least 2 of the long term supporters and previous multi time CD's in the area were just about ready to give up their efforts earlier this year as a direct result of low turnout. We started a "local" discussion about what we could do to try and revive interest in the SIG and many ideas came forward. Still I would consider our efforts to have only been marginally successful due to the turnouts we've seen so far especially as it relates to new faces in the paddock. Wayne, Tim Attaway, and others have been extremely supportive of our efforts taking the time to respond to my emails and also talk on the phone at length.
The bottom line is the IMAC SIG seems to be suffering from a declining interest. Many of us would like to see this turn around and are discussing possible solutions. My personal input is in either reestablishing the box or doing something that more clearly delineates the airspace like using a center post for at least rewarding those who would choose to present their sequences in front of the judges. I also feel that many of the current flyers seem to feel it necessary to fly needlessly large lines leading to maneuvers that are so far away as to be quite difficult to judge effectively.
Sorry for the rant, I just felt your comments while they may have been off the cuff were unhelpful at best.
Steve Graham |
|
|
|
|
Bobby Folsom
Veteran
Posts:261
IMAC #: 2073
IMAC Region: SC
|
|
Joe Cutright
Veteran
Posts:309
IMAC #: 3235
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 23 Jul 2011 15:17 |
|
im sorry - but i have to chime in here.
do you all really believe that because of the ACS and the sound issue is the reason for low attendance? I think not. For those that have competed for years now would know that back in the day when contests were held...you were lucky to have maybe 20 pilots total...leaving ample time for the pilot to land and discuss his flight with the judges. we can still do that you know...but many of us opt to get in as mant flights as possible, and get our 'moneys' worth out of traveling so far for the weekend.
many of us are in the 'instant gratification' mode...you know what i am talking about... we got out and buy the latest and greatest - you know...'pay to play', and when we show up at a contest and we dont win- we pout. we blmae everything and everybody for our performance - but not ourselves. We think if we practice a few days or weekends before a contest we are all set and ready to take home first place...maybe you have been practicing the wrong things the whole time and a reality check came in when being judged. Be open to constructive criticism...even if it doesnt make sense, accept it, question it and move on.
you see - simple things like a pilot (of all things) for our models will prevent you from winning a contest...for the love of pete, go buy a double digit pilot for your multi-thousand dollar airplane!if you dont want the pilot in your plane - dont do it. but dont complain about the penalty you will endure by the rules that are CURRENTLY in place.
also - cannisters. you dont want them in your plane, so be it!!! dont put them in. but dont freak out over the rules that are CURRENTLY in place. here again - multi thousand dollar airplane w/ the a great radio to go with it, but we dont want to shell out a few hundred more for a set of new or used pipes/cannisters! seriously?
ACS - dont blame the sequences for the mile long and mile wide pattern we fly. we need to learn the throttle and how/when to apply it. yes - i agree, i wish we didnt have the ACS, i prefer the box...but thats not going to prevent me from competing in contests. Instead - let me go out and practice and see how i can make the overall footprint smaller and try and figure out how the author of the sequence intended me on how to fly the sequence. if the judges dont like it - so be it...its subjective through and through - but here again, dont complain about the rule that is CURRENTLY in place.
Judging will ALWAYS be subjective...ALWAYS HAS been - deal with it. if you cant - move on! As stated numerous times before - as long as the judge is basing his scores consistantly to all competitors - so be it. All we can do here - is continue to hold judging seminars and all of us try to memorize and apply the rules throughout to the best of our abilities. remember - the judges you are talking about are the same ones you jduge and socilaize with on the net as well as at the field...learn to educate one another and learn to take criticism.
If you need a first place plaque to have fun - you might want to move on.
Bottom line - if you dont like a rule - attempt to change it. If you fail - try again. Are the rules perfect? no. can they be enlightend and made better, yes.
In the meantime - enjoy what we currently have in place and have FUN while doing it. In these economic times - is it any wonder why the attendance is low!?? stop comparing apples to oranges with fly ins to contests, or one area of competiton to another. Who cares what the other areas are doing - do what you enjoy and spread the fun! and stop hatin'! life is to short.
see you at the field! |
|
| Joe |
|
|
Michael Roxberry
Rookie
Posts:49
IMAC #: 4059
IMAC Region: NC
|
| 23 Jul 2011 16:44 |
|
Finally, some well stated common sense! Way to go, Joe. My feelings exactly!
Mike R. |
|
|
|
|
Kent Porter
MVP
Posts:1119
IMAC #: 3730
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 23 Jul 2011 18:02 |
|
Posted By Joe Cutright on 23 Jul 2011 15:17
im sorry - but i have to chime in here.
do you all really believe that because of the ACS and the sound issue is the reason for low attendance? I think not. For those that have competed for years now would know that back in the day when contests were held...you were lucky to have maybe 20 pilots total...leaving ample time for the pilot to land and discuss his flight with the judges. we can still do that you know...but many of us opt to get in as mant flights as possible, and get our 'moneys' worth out of traveling so far for the weekend.
many of us are in the 'instant gratification' mode...you know what i am talking about... we got out and buy the latest and greatest - you know...'pay to play', and when we show up at a contest and we dont win- we pout. we blmae everything and everybody for our performance - but not ourselves. We think if we practice a few days or weekends before a contest we are all set and ready to take home first place...maybe you have been practicing the wrong things the whole time and a reality check came in when being judged. Be open to constructive criticism...even if it doesnt make sense, accept it, question it and move on.
you see - simple things like a pilot (of all things) for our models will prevent you from winning a contest...for the love of pete, go buy a double digit pilot for your multi-thousand dollar airplane!if you dont want the pilot in your plane - dont do it. but dont complain about the penalty you will endure by the rules that are CURRENTLY in place.
also - cannisters. you dont want them in your plane, so be it!!! dont put them in. but dont freak out over the rules that are CURRENTLY in place. here again - multi thousand dollar airplane w/ the a great radio to go with it, but we dont want to shell out a few hundred more for a set of new or used pipes/cannisters! seriously?
ACS - dont blame the sequences for the mile long and mile wide pattern we fly. we need to learn the throttle and how/when to apply it. yes - i agree, i wish we didnt have the ACS, i prefer the box...but thats not going to prevent me from competing in contests. Instead - let me go out and practice and see how i can make the overall footprint smaller and try and figure out how the author of the sequence intended me on how to fly the sequence. if the judges dont like it - so be it...its subjective through and through - but here again, dont complain about the rule that is CURRENTLY in place.
Judging will ALWAYS be subjective...ALWAYS HAS been - deal with it. if you cant - move on! As stated numerous times before - as long as the judge is basing his scores consistantly to all competitors - so be it. All we can do here - is continue to hold judging seminars and all of us try to memorize and apply the rules throughout to the best of our abilities. remember - the judges you are talking about are the same ones you jduge and socilaize with on the net as well as at the field...learn to educate one another and learn to take criticism.
If you need a first place plaque to have fun - you might want to move on.
Bottom line - if you dont like a rule - attempt to change it. If you fail - try again. Are the rules perfect? no. can they be enlightend and made better, yes.
In the meantime - enjoy what we currently have in place and have FUN while doing it. In these economic times - is it any wonder why the attendance is low!?? stop comparing apples to oranges with fly ins to contests, or one area of competiton to another. Who cares what the other areas are doing - do what you enjoy and spread the fun! and stop hatin'! life is to short.
see you at the field!
and with that being said....  |
|
|
|
|
|
Gary Hammett
Pro
Posts:137
IMAC #: 5568
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 23 Jul 2011 19:34 |
|
The one thing that would help get more people out to the contest would be gas at $1 per gallon. I have yet to here anyone say they did not go due to the ASC but the cost of traveling to a contest come up often. |
|
|
|
|
Kevin Garland
All Star
Posts:1034
IMAC #: 4367
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 23 Jul 2011 23:59 |
|
Thank you Joe. Like I said before people need to quit complaining about sound and acs and focus on their unknowns and knowns. Also sound and acs "if judge properly" works great in my opinion. I have not seen a issue with it. And about the pilot and panel....I gone without one and won contest before....
Guys let me say this. This is a competition against yourself. This is not a competition against others. You as a pilot will never do a perfect sequence, you will never do a perfect manuever, if you say you do that is bull. Every manuever has some type of error in it. This is why I love IMAC and precision Aerobatics, it lets me know that perfection is something I will never attain, but thats okay, because the effort in trying to get there is what it is all about.
This just didnt come from me, this came from someone I look up to and that is Michael Goulian.
|
|
| Kevin Garland
Team OMP
Golden Eagle Aircraft
Eagle Wing Bags |
|
|
Bruce Ransome
Veteran
Posts:411
IMAC #: 5689
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 24 Jul 2011 5:53 |
|
I have to state that IMAC has come a long way in the last few years.There are calls that I dont agree with and have voiced my opinion on the but I always work within the rules that we are governed by. There is not a better group of pilots out there than The Folks Of Imac.They will always be there when you need them and a lot of times when you dont(heheheheh).This complaining about Pay to Play gets me....no one has forced anyone to buy anything..we are all guilty of wanting the best...I would venture to say that 9 out of 10 would find that the pilot is the difference and practice is far more important than the plane and most important is consistency. I have stated that I feel that the SACB is not a necessary entity and I do believe that we could govern ourselves very well and most important to me I would like my vote to count for something other than putting some one in an office...I wish our representative would vote the peoples choice and I know that they have a governing board to report to as well..Seem that ther is a board to govern the board to govern the board to govern the board.Yes I have heard all the reasonings behind the scenes and have recieved the benefit of more worldly opinions . I still feel that we could do a better job and could grow more if more folks felt we were and had more input in how things were run.Yes I know we are a SIG under the SACB and AMA umbrella but so are a lot of other groups and are THEY having the same growing pains...I think not.... As a hole we are in better shape so far as the judging scenario than we were in the past. I have seen where the judging pool has grown and has got more experienced. There have been some incidents that I have not agreed with but you cannot please me all the time(heheheheheheh)...I do agree with one major point....NO ONE PUT THAT TRANSMITTER INYOUR HAND AND HELD A GUN TO YOUR HEAD AND SAID FLY THAT DAMN PLANE.....so for all those out there with the pay to play complain I agree with Joe...just dont go.......see ya out there ...pops |
|
|
|
|
Jamie Thomas
Pro
Posts:93
IMAC #: 6125
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 24 Jul 2011 8:34 |
|
I would have to say that I completely agree with Joe. For a lot of us we do it cause it's a hobby and we want the best equipment... period. We could drive Hyundai's... but we don't! I will add that the one thing I think would be really beneficial to expanding our knowledge of the rules would be bringing a veteran pilot in to "observe" and take notes of the fliers in the lower two classes.... then when the round is complete let that veteran pilot have a short, quick stick session with stick planes to discuss habits that are being displayed as well as rules that he may see most breaking (correcting wings, wings level...) The goal here is a hands on learning experience with everybody's knowledge of rules growing in a practical setting. I know to get a veteran pilot, or even someone knowledgeable about the book and has sat in the chair might be a commitment, but watching one round would be more valuable then anything I could think of at the field. Some wanting to get into IMAC do not have a pilot near that could always help. I have asked some of the top guys to watch me fly and then comment when I was done and have learned more from that than anything I could ask for at a contest. I think to ask the judges to do this is just too much for them to handle, thats why an observer would be really beneficial in my eyes. |
|
|
|
|
Gil R. Major
All Star
Posts:932
IMAC #: 3160
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 24 Jul 2011 8:51 |
|
VERY Well Stated Joe |
|
| Sponsored by My Wife |
|
|
Silver Fox
MVP
Posts:2874
IMAC #: 1294
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 24 Jul 2011 9:32 |
|
Joe... Thank you for saying out loud what MANY silent IMAC members feel.
Here is a quote from a future famous New Jersey member who sums it all up: "I am always amazed that there are those who try to help IMAC be as successful as possible and let their actions do most of their talking."
Thanks Frank, and know that the IMAC leadership is working to make IMAC better at all times, regardless of the obstacles before us. There is a major decision in front of the BOD at our next meeting in early August which could boost IMAC way beyond our dreams!
regards,
Wayne
IMAC President |
|
| One thing you can give and still keep...is your word. |
|
|
Steve Stanton
Veteran
Posts:228
IMAC #: 4707
IMAC Region: NE
|
| 24 Jul 2011 10:37 |
|
I think Gary Hammett has raised a good point. We always hear about complaints and just outright bitching about this and that. But I wonder if any of those things really keep someone at home. I'm not suggesting that IMAC doesn't have room for improvement and that everyones thoughts and suggestions shouldn't be expressed. I just can't beleive that any of those things would keep someone from competing.
IMAC means a lot of different things to many different people. It can't possably please everyone. For me, it's the greatest. |
|
|
|
|
Mark Mcclellan
MVP
Posts:3824
IMAC #: 2711
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 25 Jul 2011 9:40 |
|
I have taken a break this year from flying contest and there are serval reasons for it but I can tell you for sure it is not because of any rules at all !!!!! I will be back at it soon. |
|
| Was the Southeast RD 2009-2010 |
|
|
Steve Graham
Rookie
Posts:53
IMAC #: 6226
IMAC Region: SW
|
| 25 Jul 2011 11:23 |
|
So I'm hearing a lot of good ideas and some I maybe don't agree with so much. I kind of feel like it would be nice if we could generate the amount of interest on the IMAC forum that we seem to have on FG's. This is an IMAC discussion after all. OTOH perhaps it doesn't really matter as long as the conversation happens somewhere and most of the active IMAC'ers are likely also FG members? I don't feel like there is anything fundamentally or irreversibly broken with IMAC. We have a fairly strong core of experience. We have a set of rules that works for the most part and more importantly we have a mechanism to change them when we need to. Whether that mechanism functions properly I don't have the experience to gauge? Even when it comes to ACS I don't believe that will keep people from coming to events. I just don't really understand why people flying in sportsman and intermediate fly soooo far away unnecessarily when the foot print statements in the rules clearly state that should be avoided? At any rate I still don't think any of these issues is preventing people with an interest in IMAC from coming or continuing to come to events. I believe the cost of setting up a large scale aerobat is a barrier to entry. Even my little 96" Extra has me in for north of 3K if you consider the cost of the replacement airframe necessitated by the stupidity of its builder  . Now I REALLY want to build a large Dalton; but, I think that I am going to try and prove a point in the next couple of years and just do everything I can to learn to fly my "little" plane better than anyone else locally to see if I can't be competitive at least through intermediate and possibly beyond with it. I believe I can! Now here is what I would really like to see us discussing: How do we generate enough interest for people to come and try IMAC that haven't previously. I can off the top of my head name at least 6 people whom I know personally and locally who have large scale, over 100cc, aerobats that have never come to an event. I have spoken to all of them. Cost is not an issue, they already have the plane and are flying it regularly. At one of the events we only charged five bucks for first time basic entries? No takers? Here are a sample of some of the responses I've gotten when I've asked for their support. "Competition is a pain in the ass" "I need to practice more" (this last one coming from a guy who was doing rolling circles before I started flying RC. "IMAC is boring" (generally coming from someone who WATCHED it once) "I can't read Aresti" (followed by my using the IMAC app and five minutes of my time to teach Aresti to them). I wonder if the IMAC leadership could possibly put together a PDF addressing some of these common misperceptions and talking points we could use when trying to persuade folks to at least come to an event. Then the challenge becomes how do we ensure they have a satisfying experience that makes them want to come back. For me this was a no brainer but perhaps other people need different motivation. For me just the challenge of learning to properly setup and fly the maneuvers I think will keep me around for a long time. What do we need to do to appeal to the 3D crowd in convincing them of the benefits to their 3D flying of learning precision flying? Perhaps a discussion highlighting the advantages of diversifying your skill set? Sorry for the stream of consciousness but I think these are the areas we should be brain storming. Steve |
|
|
|
|
Daniel Rathbun
Rookie
Posts:15
IMAC #: 3291
IMAC Region: SC
|
| 27 Jul 2011 2:40 |
|
Posted By Wayne Matthews on 22 Jul 2011 11:33
Bobby... I'm really happy that you like the first two points...
For the "uninformed" please take a look at what is REALLY happening in full scale aerobatic competition. Here is a link to the 2009 UNLIMITED WORLD CHAMPION, Renaud Ecalle's (unfortunately now deceased) flight program. It consists of 9 figures with a K value of 420K AND has in 14 Snap Rolls.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7cV3mse0TM...r_embedded
This may "OPEN" some eyes to the REALITY that exists.
Wayne
Just to be completely informed, the 2011 IAC Unlimited Known sequence has 5 snaps in 4 maneuvers. Comparing someone's "free" program and the Worlds would compare more closely with a Clover Creek finals unknown in Invitational. |
|
|
|
|
Silver Fox
MVP
Posts:2874
IMAC #: 1294
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 27 Jul 2011 9:53 |
|
Thanks for your input Daniel.
Wayne |
|
| One thing you can give and still keep...is your word. |
|
|
Steve Stanton
Veteran
Posts:228
IMAC #: 4707
IMAC Region: NE
|
| 27 Jul 2011 9:54 |
|
Something to think about. I think It's reasonable to think there will be a predictable and natureral turnover in IMAC .
We have the same thing in our local club memberships. Some leave, replacements come in.
In order to increase the membership in IMAC over and above the normal turnover rate something has to happen or be done in order to acheive the goal. I'm not being critical but I don't now of anything IMAC does above the norm in order to generate new memberbers. Individuals in IMAC, do promote the sport in a lot of ways but there is no organized and official marketing program offered by IMAC to promote new membership. The examples sited by Steve Graham illustrate the lack of knowledge by the general flying population when it comes to IMAC.
In my business (machinery manufacturing), we have found that video's, of our machines in operation are enormously effective in marketing our products. When we look at the "judging" segment produced by IMAC on this web site, we know we have the ability to produce effective video material.
A video, designed to explain what IMAC is all about, to show how IMAC improves flying skills, the social aspects of IMAC, etc. could be sent to every local club. Distrabution could be handled on a regional basis with very minimal expense compared to the potencial rewards. Local clubs are always looking for material to show at their meetings.
I'm sure there are other marketing tools that can be implemented but I beleive the video (DVD) is the most effective and least expensive when compared to the results it produces. |
|
|
|
|
Bruce Ransome
Veteran
Posts:411
IMAC #: 5689
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 27 Jul 2011 12:30 |
|
Excellent idea Steve |
|
|
|
|
Silver Fox
MVP
Posts:2874
IMAC #: 1294
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 27 Jul 2011 13:52 |
|
Thank You Steve.... Very valid suggestion.
Regards,
Wayne |
|
| One thing you can give and still keep...is your word. |
|
|
Anthony Fandino
Veteran
Posts:253
IMAC #: 3588
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 28 Jul 2011 12:13 |
|
Joe very well stated.
Steve very good idea ... |
|
|
|
|
Mark Mcclellan
MVP
Posts:3824
IMAC #: 2711
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 28 Jul 2011 12:36 |
|
I like that idea,,,,,,,, good one Steve ! |
|
| Was the Southeast RD 2009-2010 |
|
|
notruthless
Rookie
Posts:10
IMAC #: 6677
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 28 Jul 2011 13:35 |
|
Being so new to the sport, I don't have a solid recommendation, but a couple of observations.
To me, competing in IMAC has many similarities to competing at any level of golf. There are always rules that govern play and you have to develop your game within those rules. You are always going to chase a better swing, green read, course management, score, etc. In our case it is a finer display of the maneuver, wind correction, etc...getting closer to whatever our individual (and the judges) definition of perfection is. There is always going to be a Tiger Woods to kick your butt with superior pilot skills and control over their competition nerves, regardless of who you are as a pilot.
Competition isn’t for everyone, and yes there is attrition as the progression in the classes gets tougher. The attrition is the same in every competitive situation. Only a few have the tools, will and skill to “make it” at the highest levels. We can talk about how the plane is necessary to climb the ranks, but the pilot is the real determiner. It was said at some point that the plane is only the “tool”…well then, the pilot is the craftsman.
If you don't have some realistic expectations for yourself and the contest going in, then maybe you should have re-evaluated why you were there to start with...long before you stopped competing. Without some purpose, you have no purpose. Why did you want to compete to start with?
Chris
|
|
|
|
|
Gil R. Major
All Star
Posts:932
IMAC #: 3160
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 28 Jul 2011 16:50 |
|
WOW Chris, that is well stated |
|
| Sponsored by My Wife |
|
|
Robotech
Rookie
Posts:38
IMAC #: 6407
IMAC Region: SC
|
| 29 Jul 2011 20:22 |
|
In regards to flying a smaller box and reducing the footprint ............. last year was my first and I made a special effort to reduce the size of my sequence, using just enough space between maneuvers to establish a wings level , straight line. I quit doing it after my third contest and my third time being told I was rushing the sequence. I now fly the same speed but with a longer (wasted) distance between figures and am getting better ACS scores. You want a smaller footprint, talk to the folks judging. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry Hailey
Veteran
Posts:628
IMAC #: 6231
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 29 Jul 2011 21:33 |
|
Posted By Robotech on 29 Jul 2011 20:22
In regards to flying a smaller box and reducing the footprint ............. last year was my first and I made a special effort to reduce the size of my sequence, using just enough space between maneuvers to establish a wings level , straight line. I quit doing it after my third contest and my third time being told I was rushing the sequence. I now fly the same speed but with a longer (wasted) distance between figures and am getting better ACS scores. You want a smaller footprint, talk to the folks judging.
Lets talk about ACS. This topic was discussed in detail at the last three judging schools I attended. The rule does not say you must fly the tightest footprint possible. The intent is that the figures are place so they can be optimally judged. If you rush from one figure to the next the judges have a hard time writing the score and seeing the seeing the figures. I believe you are getting better ACS score because you are placing the figures in a way the judges can optimally judge them. You are probably not flying an excessively large footprint. From the rule book:
The following standard will be used for accessing the pilot’s
performance in maintaining control and awareness of the aerobatic
airspace and placing figures in the airspace in a manner that allow the
figures to be optimally judges.
The highest standard for Airspace Control will be the pilot
that exhibits a significant ability to control the location of the aircraft
inside the airspace, relative to the judges, which results in a tight
footprint and has the aircraft such that it can be optimally judged at all
times. The pilot that exhibits excellent airspace control should receive
a ten (10).
The lowest standard for Airspace Control will be the pilot that
exhibits a poor ability to control the location of the aircraft inside the
airspace, relative to the judges, which results in an excessively large
footprint and has the aircraft consistently so far away as to be difficult
to properly judge.
|
|
|
|
|
Robotech
Rookie
Posts:38
IMAC #: 6407
IMAC Region: SC
|
| 30 Jul 2011 10:41 |
|
Posted By Jerry Hailey on 29 Jul 2011 21:33
Posted By Robotech on 29 Jul 2011 20:22
In regards to flying a smaller box and reducing the footprint ............. last year was my first and I made a special effort to reduce the size of my sequence, using just enough space between maneuvers to establish a wings level , straight line. I quit doing it after my third contest and my third time being told I was rushing the sequence. I now fly the same speed but with a longer (wasted) distance between figures and am getting better ACS scores. You want a smaller footprint, talk to the folks judging.
Lets talk about ACS. This topic was discussed in detail at the last three judging schools I attended. The rule does not say you must fly the tightest footprint possible. The intent is that the figures are place so they can be optimally judged. If you rush from one figure to the next the judges have a hard time writing the score and seeing the seeing the figures. I believe you are getting better ACS score because you are placing the figures in a way the judges can optimally judge them. You are probably not flying an excessively large footprint.
From the rule book:
The following standard will be used for accessing the pilot’s
performance in maintaining control and awareness of the aerobatic
airspace and placing figures in the airspace in a manner that allow the
figures to be optimally judges.
The highest standard for Airspace Control will be the pilot
that exhibits a significant ability to control the location of the aircraft
inside the airspace, relative to the judges, which results in a tight
footprint and has the aircraft such that it can be optimally judged at all
times. The pilot that exhibits excellent airspace control should receive
a ten (10).
The lowest standard for Airspace Control will be the pilot that
exhibits a poor ability to control the location of the aircraft inside the
airspace, relative to the judges, which results in an excessively large
footprint and has the aircraft consistently so far away as to be difficult
to properly judge.
I can't see well enough to fly an excessively large footprint.  |
|
|
|
|
Dean Nistetter
Pro
Posts:129
IMAC #: 4655
IMAC Region: SC
|
| 31 Jul 2011 14:55 |
|
WOW!!! I just came across this thread and discovered that the very first post quoted some comments I made on FG’s and it seems to have sparked off some strong opinions in this thread. Now I feel that I need to defend what I said and not let you guys twist it around into things that I didn’t’ say. I’ll use a bullet approach again to make it easier to read.
• The FG post that was referenced was my attempt to respond with ideas to help improve IMAC. This is what the original FG post had asked for. Few people prior to my response had made proactive comments and simply were complaining or whining. I stand behind my comments and had tried to make positive suggestions. Do not interpret them as whining as they are suggestions from my perspective. If you don’t agree with them then fine but don’t attack the messenger for having an opinion.
• It was implied that I was “uninformed” regarding my opinion to have fewer snaps in the Advanced and Unlimited sequences. Not the case at all. I just have a different opinion and perspective. I don’t make comments from the hip so if you’d like to give me a call I’ll explain my logic (the poster has my number).
• It was implied that I was grumbling because I might be one of “those guys that want to win but don’t.” Hmmmm… I don’t want to sound arrogant but I don’t know any other way to dispel this notion other than to give some personal stats. Over the last 6 years I have attended 31 IMAC contests with the following results: 19 first place finishes, 5 second place finishes, 4 third place finishes, and 3 non-placing finishes. I am not one of “those guys” so don’t discount my comments for those reasons.
• Why do I fly IMAC? There are two primary reasons: 1) It’s a way to improve my skills by flying sequences primarily against myself in front of judges and nobody else every time out. Yes, winning is a bonus but it’s not my primary driver. 2) I predominately fly only within my Region and that lets me see the same people over and over. I like the family feel of it and that creates the “Fun” aspect for me. I don’t fly at NATS because I don’t want to drive the distance pulling a trailer.
• I never mentioned judging as an issue. Over time, I believe we all place naturally where we should. Yes there might be specific issues now and again but I don’t believe those are IMAC killers.
• I used to run canisters, pipes, 3 blades, etc. My current plane has a DA200 with stock mufflers. My personal sound scores have not changed appreciable as a result either because I use the throttle accordingly. So for me sound scores really haven’t impacted me in a negative way. However, I am against having them because they have nothing to do with presenting the geometry and maneuvers of our sequences. I do understand that some judges have made sounds score decisions based upon equipment and feel this is simply wrong. Another factor for me is that I hate having to add extra weight for cans, etc. to a plane when it isn’t absolutely needed. I fully understand the “great debate” on sound, pay-to-play, etc. so rather than to prolong it I’ll just say that this is my opinion and leave it at that.
• ACS – I understand the concept and intent but feel there’s a better solution with box boundaries as I mentioned in my original post. This is another one of those great debates so again, I’ll just leave this one as that’s my opinion.
• Politics, Perceptions, Governance - Many non-IMAC’rs see & hear all of our bickering in various threads, in person with their friends, etc. and choose not to even give it a try. This is very unfortunate. I personally feel that some of this perpetuates itself as a result of how we are governed as a sig within AMA. People naturally want to feel like their opinion is heard and legitimately considered. It can’t be denied that IMAC governance is misunderstood by a lot of people and sometimes appears dictatorial. This is why I made points 8 & 9 on my original post. Please go back and read them. Simplifying the process where people feel that their voice counts and that they are truly represented is vital to any healthy organization. I know making these changes may be a pipe dream but I’m saying it anyway.
• I find it curious that within this thread that none of the comments focused on my point #5. I’ll restate it here because I think its vitally important – “Find ways to retain our veteran pilots. To me this is an IMAC killer for many reasons. If we had a larger contingent of seasoned pilots I believe attracting newer participants would solve itself.” I really would be curious on hearing people’s thoughts about this one.
In summary, just because I’ve made some observations and suggestions that you might not agree with don’t assume I’m all doom & gloom about IMAC. I really do want IMAC to grow. Really!!! However, right or wrong there are perceptions & aspects about our organization that if dealt with could make it better.
I’m going to close with a new suggestion. Let’s not hide behind the wizard’s curtain in denial and confront these issues head on. I believe a lot of credibility could be made if an IMAC/AMA authority would publically acknowledge on FG an understanding of the concerns being stated. I want to be clear on what I just said - this is simply an acknowledgement & understanding and not necessarily agreement. It should further be communicated that this input will be taken into account as future changes are made. However, do not do this if it’s not felt a transparent decision process and results can be shown back to the Membership such that they feel they were both heard and represented in total.
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry Hailey
Veteran
Posts:628
IMAC #: 6231
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 31 Jul 2011 17:51 |
|
Posted By Dean Nistetter on 31 Jul 2011 14:55
I’m going to close with a new suggestion. Let’s not hide behind the wizard’s curtain in denial and confront these issues head on. I believe a lot of credibility could be made if an IMAC/AMA authority would publically acknowledge on FG an understanding of the concerns being stated. I want to be clear on what I just said - this is simply an acknowledgement & understanding and not necessarily agreement. It should further be communicated that this input will be taken into account as future changes are made. However, do not do this if it’s not felt a transparent decision process and results can be shown back to the Membership such that they feel they were both heard and represented in total.
I only quoted the last part to save space on the page, and that is where I would like to comment on first. I personally do not feel that anyone from the IMAC BOD should publicly address anything on FG. This is the place to discuss IMAC business. Nothing against FG, but that would set a precedence to respond on RCU, Flying circus, RC groups, Yahoo, Facebook, or any other medium that discuss IMAC. Every IMAC member visits mini-iac.com if nothing else but to update their annual membership. Now that we are here I’ll entertain a conversation of positive suggestions to get more pilots involved and keep the ones we have. I recently accepted the ARD North Carolina position and the request was to “promote IMAC” I will try my best to make any contest I attend fun and promote IMAC. Here is the magic question; How many of these issues are wide spread concerns of the majority of the IMAC members? How can we find out? I don’t think a poll is very effective. I believe that most active pilots just want to show up at a contest, fly their plane, have a little fun with their buddies, and go home with a piece of wood if they can. These pilots depend on the elected BOD to speak on their behalf. Now taking on the one issue that I took from your original post, ACS. I did start a thread under the members only area with a suggestion on using a downgrade system for ACS. Wayne Mathews posted a response letting me know it would be considered. This was a public acknowledgment to an IMAC member on the IMAC web site that the BOD is listening. So far not one person has posted a response to the suggestion. I was expecting a couple of comments that it is not needed because the current ACS rule is working. Personally I feel it is working. At the Nats this year I watched pilot after pilot fly in the same airspace. The runway is painted with the 60 degree lines for pattern. I was surprised how close everyone flies to that 60 degree line. |
|
|
|
|
Dean Nistetter
Pro
Posts:129
IMAC #: 4655
IMAC Region: SC
|
| 01 Aug 2011 0:09 |
|
Posted By Jerry Hailey on 31 Jul 2011 17:51
I personally do not feel that anyone from the IMAC BOD should publicly address anything on FG. This is the place to discuss IMAC business. Nothing against FG, but that would set a precedence to respond on RCU, Flying circus, RC groups, Yahoo, Facebook, or any other medium that discuss IMAC. Every IMAC member visits mini-iac.com if nothing else but to update their annual membership.
Jerry, you bring up a valid point. This should be best place to discuss IMAC business. I agree with that. However, that doesn't change the fact that IMAC is getting severely bashed and bantered about elsewhere. Should that simply be ignored and we pretend it's not happening? It won't go away on its own and in my opinion the answer is no.
This website doesn't have a large following even by its own members. However, because of what you say maybe a better way to deal with it would be to have an authoritative acknowledgment and statement some how here in the IMAC site. Someone could then post a link to it on FG, etc. The subject threads on FG's are not fly by night or simply passing discussions. They are very real, emotional and have huge followings. Letting them drift forward without authoritative direction only prolongs misinformation, negativity, and further bad perceptions about IMAC.
If there is some kind of edict within IMAC's BOD or elsewhere to not make statements outside of this website then maybe an exception to that policy in this case would be in order. There is an an opportunity here to widely communicate with both IMAC and non-IMAC members to let them know that they are at least being heard and that it actually matters in some way. I know it's just my opinion but silence in this case is not a good thing. Common sense and proper communications should trump policy on this one.
|
|
|
|
|
Steve Stanton
Veteran
Posts:228
IMAC #: 4707
IMAC Region: NE
|
| 01 Aug 2011 14:10 |
|
I think I see where Jerry is coming from. There is some constructive input on the FG thread but there is also a lot of what I call "peeing on the floor". I'm not sure there is anything to be gained by responding to those that are just interested in trashing IMAC or airing personal greivances. So that leaves discussing constructive ideas that would help to improve IMAC as a whole, and I'm with Jerry in saying that the IMAC web site is the place to do that.
Something else that I think we should keep in mind. We all have personal preferances with respect to how we think things should be. But the IMAC organization could not possibly satisfy every preferance. The IMAC management will make decisions based on what it thinks is best for the whole (hopefully) and not only the future of IMAC but for the future of aero modeling as well.
Just my 2 cents. |
|
|
|
|
Brad
Pro
Posts:159
IMAC #: 6304
IMAC Region: NE
|
| 02 Aug 2011 19:41 |
|
My personal opinion is that the sound scores are having the desired effect. After running my first contest last weekend, I became very attuned to the noise signatures of each of the competitors planes. There were a couple planes that were CLEARLY much louder than the others, and frankly it was pretty annoying listening to the constant prop rip and excessive noise when those pilots flew. Most of the pilots have made the efforts to quiet their planes down, and when I had the opportunity to sit in the judges chair, I tried very hard to make the sound scores consistent and fair. I am all for keeping the sound scoring system put in place this year for at least the next 3 years and then reevaluate if its had the desired effect.
Regarding keeping the veterans - we are discussing how to revitalize the upper classes. The large number of Sportsman this year bodes very well for the coming years if we keep them interested. And I'm sure Brian and Frank would love to have some competition.
Brad
Brad |
|
|
|
|
vince
Pro
Posts:79
IMAC #: 5919
IMAC Region: SC
|
| 03 Aug 2011 1:47 |
|
2009 and 2010 had 13 contests
2009 basic avg 7.92 per event High of 21 in one event and a low of 1 in an event
2009 sportsman avg 7.92 per event high of 17 in one event and a low of 3 in an event
2009 intermediate avg 5.46 per event high of 11 in one event and a low of 2 in an event
2010 basic avg. 6.15 per event high of 19 in one event and a low of 2 in an event
2010 sportsman avg. 6.46 per event high of 13 in one event and a low of 3 in an event
2010 intermediate avg. 3.53 per event high of 7 in one event low of 1 in an event
One event in 2009 and 2010 had entry of basic and sportsman which double versus the other events
2011 has 10 events set so far with 4 complete as to date
Basic 3 avg, high of 4 low of 2
Sportsman 7.5 avg. high of 10 low of 5
Intermediate 2.5 avg. high of 4 low of 2
Basic class needs to be a lower entry than the other class’s they should be half off at least
We as upper classmen need to inform the basic of throttle management and let them know that skill is required to keep from spending more cash to add cans or pipes.
Basic should be moved up to sportsman the next year if they finish 3rd or higher the prior year in regional points.
Sportsman class need to be moved up to intermediate same as basic to sportsman.
What happens is that a guy is less likely to go from basic to sportsman if the guys who are up towards to top each year in sportsman never move up. They feel like they don’t have a chance. This also helps add to the intermediate class which is where the numbers begin to drop. Why? no one has to move to intermediate unless they win 5 contests with at least 4 other competitors. We all like to be challenged but we also like to know we have a chance and I for one would like to fly against more than one or two other guys. Makes the trip and money spent more worth it!
I also think it would be good to spread the NATS around so that more people who can not make it at it current place would be able to attend. Not a big deal what only 5 in each of the lower classes the past two years. worth another look!
The numbers only reflect my region and my comments are to only help bring attention to help! I know that not every region has the same problems such as sound but we all share the same issues as far as attendance. |
|
|
|
|
Steve Stanton
Veteran
Posts:228
IMAC #: 4707
IMAC Region: NE
|
| 03 Aug 2011 11:54 |
|
Hey Vince, Those are some great stats and it must have taken a substancial effort to put them together.
I do agree with you that there are some issues in the Basic class that should be talked about. The Basic class is where interest in IMAC and becoming a member of IMAC almost always begins. Unfortunately, it may also end there as well.
I agree in principle that there should be a better way to move those that are obviously ready to move up to the next class. I'm not sure it should be the regional points because they do not neccessarily represent a compeditors ability to compete on a higher level. The regional points may more accurately reflect the number of events attended although not always.
It seems like 5 wins in a class of four or more may be a little much. Maybe 3 wins would be more appropriate.
I also like the 1/2 price entry fee for basic. Art Vail did this at the Charm City event here in the N.E. region.
There are other things I think we could do to encourage new interest and I have talked about them on other threads here on the IMAC site.
Thanks Vince for work you put into this. |
|
|
|
|
Curtis Cozier
MVP
Posts:2448
IMAC #: 4686
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 09 Aug 2011 14:22 |
|
All GREAT Info....
just an FYI...it did used to be 3 contests... but some felt that was too early... so it changed to 5..
at least that is the way I understood it...
|
|
| SE Regional Director/Judging Instructor/IMAC Sequence committee/Team Futaba/Extreme Flight R/C
|
|
|
Kevin Wilson
All Star
Posts:897
IMAC #: 5341
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 09 Aug 2011 15:09 |
|
Anyone else see the irony over on fg? One thread where folks say how sound is not an issue and another very active thread discussing field loss and being kicked out for loud planes?! |
|
| ARD - Florida |
|
|
Jerry Hailey
Veteran
Posts:628
IMAC #: 6231
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 09 Aug 2011 17:22 |
|
Posted By Kevin Wilson on 09 Aug 2011 15:09
Anyone else see the irony over on fg? One thread where folks say how sound is not an issue and another very active thread discussing field loss and being kicked out for loud planes?!
Oh yea. I couldn't count the number of times I have typed a response, but then stopped just short of hitting the enter key and deleted what I wrote. |
|
|
|
|
Anthony Fandino
Veteran
Posts:253
IMAC #: 3588
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 09 Aug 2011 17:45 |
|
To many non competitors putting in there 2 cents. Just foolish |
|
|
|
|
Primo Rivera
MVP
Posts:1547
IMAC #: 5257
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 09 Aug 2011 20:30 |
|
Posted By Jerry Hailey on 09 Aug 2011 17:22
Posted By Kevin Wilson on 09 Aug 2011 15:09
Anyone else see the irony over on fg? One thread where folks say how sound is not an issue and another very active thread discussing field loss and being kicked out for loud planes?!
Oh yea.
I couldn't count the number of times I have typed a response, but then stopped just short of hitting the enter key and deleted what I wrote.
+1 Jerry it is not worth the time. |
|
| PRIMO KABOOM!!!
AKA ROLLERMAN
ALMOST FLYING IN ADVANCE!!!! |
|
|
Bruce Ransome
Veteran
Posts:411
IMAC #: 5689
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 10 Aug 2011 5:54 |
|
Sometimes it is very hard to educate the hopelessly ignor-rant..It also goes to show you how little folks really know about IMAC and the hows and whys of the things we do...In a way it could be used constructively and we could have used it as a spring board to positively re-enforce the negatives ...I know they sure pissed me off several times with the lack of knowledge seen...Many good points were brought out ...more negative than positive..Several of US got into pissing contests and were drawn in by their negativity and took it personnally..I know I did..Especially the sound thing which has been beat to death yet there was some validity to it and a number of good points made..The last one really got me ...about judging sound by the squeal.Not trying to pin point anyone but it truly shows the lack of knowledge of some that are sitting in THE CHAIR.It also shows the need that we ARE addressing and that is education.In the SE we have taken it upon ourselves at each contest to review some of the common mistakes made in the CHAIR at the pilots meeting..This is working to an extent but we need more folks to come to the school and we are doing that by having several schools throughout the region..All those who go are to be commended. we see the same judges in the chair contest after contest and we rely on them but never take the time to thank them and realize what a sacrifice they make ..We are sitting on our assets while they are in the chair giving up their time to help you and never get so much as a thank you but do get the proverbial...he dont no sh---t..I deserved a better score...I flew better than that...he dont even fly, I look at it this way....you earned all the deductions...I aint perfect as a judge but at least I am serving the contest by SITTING IN THE CHAIR....WHAT ARE YOU DOING......sorry folks just my rant for the day...pops..It was suggested to me after I wrote this diatride that.....maybe on Fridays before the contest take a pilot and everyone there judge and discuss the flight but do this several times. We will accomplish several things at one time...Person gets a no interference flight...2 more direct involvement...3 makes us all more aware of...ARE WE SEEING WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SEEING AND JUDGING IT CORRECTLY... 4.a positive reinforcement of application of the rule criteria not the rule perception...5. will help eliminate the need of FLYING FOR THE JUDGE NOT THE CRITERIA........POPS |
|
|
|
|
Primo Rivera
MVP
Posts:1547
IMAC #: 5257
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 10 Aug 2011 7:49 |
|
POP"S Do you mean that someone was judging sound by the squeal a comp arf makes? ARE YOU F!@#!$^NG kidding me. Where was that comment made I would like to read it?
See ya in Jacksonville in Novemver, say hello to Bryan for me. |
|
| PRIMO KABOOM!!!
AKA ROLLERMAN
ALMOST FLYING IN ADVANCE!!!! |
|
|
john schroder
Pro
Posts:195
IMAC #: 2046
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 10 Aug 2011 8:40 |
|
Posted By Primo Rivera on 10 Aug 2011 7:49
POP"S Do you mean that someone was judging sound by the squeal a comp arf makes? ARE YOU F!@#!$^NG kidding me. Where was that comment made I would like to read it?
See ya in Jacksonville in Novemver, say hello to Bryan for me.
Actually,,if you can hear the squeal,,so can the sound meter. The poster has a valid point. We are judging sound not only engine sound. I know it sounds silly,,,but valid in my opinion. see you soon, John |
|
|
|
|
tl3
Veteran
Posts:464
IMAC #: 2375
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 10 Aug 2011 11:44 |
|
Posted By john schroder on 10 Aug 2011 8:40
Posted By Primo Rivera on 10 Aug 2011 7:49
POP"S Do you mean that someone was judging sound by the squeal a comp arf makes? ARE YOU F!@#!$^NG kidding me. Where was that comment made I would like to read it?
See ya in Jacksonville in Novemver, say hello to Bryan for me.
Actually,,if you can hear the squeal,,so can the sound meter.
The poster has a valid point. We are judging sound not only engine sound. I know it sounds silly,,,but valid in my opinion.
see you soon,
John
Indeed. The sound rule applies to the overall sound footprint produced by the aircraft. We tend to focus on exhaust and prop noise because those are the most prominent sound factors on the planes, and occur at amplitudes and frequencies that travel the furthest. However, carb intake, airframe vibration, and yes, aileron squeal all contribute to the overall sound footprint, they just are not the primary offensive factors. As an illustration of the point, years back I flew a Radiocraft Staudacher with a BME 102 on stock exhausts and a Mezjlik 3 - blade. This was when sound test first came about, and by adding some lite insulation to the inside of my cowl I dropped 2 db under the old IMAC test standards. Much of that certainly was a reduction of the drumming effect in the cowl, but there was also a clear reduction of noticeable intake noise. Now, that's not to say one should necessarily downgrade explicitly for the comp-arf squeal, but it is part of the sound footprint. t |
|
| Futaba, Desert Aircraft, Dalton Aviation, OMP, Fromeco Scale Avionics, J&J Tailwheels, SPL Lubricants |
|
|
Primo Rivera
MVP
Posts:1547
IMAC #: 5257
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 10 Aug 2011 12:53 |
|
Thanks guys, I understand but to downgrade the sound on a pilot because of the noise on a comp would be on the extreme side. I flew one for two years and to my knowledge I never got downgraded for the squeal. |
|
| PRIMO KABOOM!!!
AKA ROLLERMAN
ALMOST FLYING IN ADVANCE!!!! |
|
|
Anthony Fandino
Veteran
Posts:253
IMAC #: 3588
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 10 Aug 2011 17:04 |
|
I never down graded merely because it was way below the level i considered offensive or to loud. But it is a fact that the vibration transmitted across an airframe can affect the sound level. More vibration area means more sound pressure. Dampening inside cowls and airframes can reduce sound levels |
|
|
|
|
Anthony Fandino
Veteran
Posts:253
IMAC #: 3588
IMAC Region: SE
|
|
Bill Adams
Veteran
Posts:201
IMAC #: 4399
IMAC Region: SW
|
| 14 Aug 2011 20:11 |
|
Posted By john schroder on 10 Aug 2011 8:40
Posted By Primo Rivera on 10 Aug 2011 7:49
POP"S Do you mean that someone was judging sound by the squeal a comp arf makes? ARE YOU F!@#!$^NG kidding me. Where was that comment made I would like to read it?
See ya in Jacksonville in Novemver, say hello to Bryan for me.
Actually,,if you can hear the squeal,,so can the sound meter.
The poster has a valid point. We are judging sound not only engine sound. I know it sounds silly,,,but valid in my opinion.
see you soon,
John
People on some of the other threads are stating that the sound score should only be a db meter reading while you fly. I am wondering if these same guys would want the Comp Arfs exempt for the db meter reading because you should'nt take the squeal into consideration. My plane should be exempt from the db meter reading too because i used very thin covering material to save weight, so my airframe "drums" more than a normal plane so this makes the db reading unusually high, just like the Comp-ARF squeal.  |
|
| "I may be old, but my doctor says I have the thumbs of a 14 year old" |
|
|
Steve Graham
Rookie
Posts:53
IMAC #: 6226
IMAC Region: SW
|
| 14 Aug 2011 23:11 |
|
I'm glad that this is being discussed here to the extent that it is. I know we only have around a thousand members but it seems like a worthy conversation and not just for those who are currently competing. I for one use the other web forums and have learned a great deal by applying critical reasoning to whats being written. If we use the argument that those who don't compete should be ignored or not have their opinions at least evaluated than just how are we to know what it's going to take to get those same folks interested in trying IMAC. To be sure there are folks that just want to complain or argue for their exercise; but, not everyone who presents a complaint has unworthy motivation. Sometimes they may actually be trying to help the organization especially if they are offering solutions to the issue brought up. I guess we each have to decide for ourselves what the right thing to do is and hopefully that is what is best for the ENTIRE IMAC SIG. I would encourage the IMAC leadership to take your time before you outright dismiss something like this just because it doesn't happen on this website. IMAC does not belong to IMAC. It is a SIG of the AMA and any member many of whom are posting on FG's has a rightful claim to be heard and even propose rule changes. Right or wrong we don't require membership to compete. Furthermore FG's has many times the number of IMAC related posts than this very website. It's the same with the AMA website. I didn't make it that way but it is the case. IMO ignoring these simple facts is a failure on our part to lead by listening to our constituency.
Here in Colorado we are actively discussing this very topic among the IMAC membership as well as those who don't belong but compete. We are doing what we can to increase participation. Personally I will take and answer to the best of my ability any question on our operation from any interested party. I do this for the sake of the SIG.
Steve |
|
|
|
|
john schroder
Pro
Posts:195
IMAC #: 2046
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 15 Aug 2011 8:30 |
|
Well said Steve,,I agree
see you soon,
John
|
|
|
|
|
james taylor
Veteran
Posts:411
IMAC #: 5569
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 20 Aug 2011 7:12 |
|
These discussions about sound have now reached a new level of ridiculous! Are we actually talking about downgrading a sound score for the comparf squeel!!!!!! That noise is soooooo far within what should be acceptable noise limits. |
|
| I gotta go to St. Somewhere.
Jimmy Buffett |
|
|
james taylor
Veteran
Posts:411
IMAC #: 5569
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 20 Aug 2011 7:19 |
|
Now that I have my flame suit on, I'll pose another question. What benefit do we (IMAC) receive by being a SIG of AMA? Unless there are some benefits that I am not aware of, we could operate just as well, if not better, as an independent organization. |
|
| I gotta go to St. Somewhere.
Jimmy Buffett |
|
|
Kurtis Waites
Veteran
Posts:233
IMAC #: 4553
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 20 Aug 2011 7:44 |
|
It's called Liability! |
|
| "IMAC is only as good as the judging" |
|
|
Kevin Wilson
All Star
Posts:897
IMAC #: 5341
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 20 Aug 2011 8:09 |
|
I am sure there are benefits of which I am not even aware, but just being tied to an organization that has the strength in numbers, and whose purpose is to protect and advance our hobby in general, has got to be a good thing. I would think that if IMAC pulled out as a sig, another organization might step in. Then you would have a situation like in racing with IRL and CART and neither would do well. |
|
| ARD - Florida |
|
|
Silver Fox
MVP
Posts:2874
IMAC #: 1294
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 20 Aug 2011 8:43 |
|
Let me assure all of our members and also interested parties.... IMAC has been the Scale Aerobatics SIG for the AMA since 1980. We have NO intentions of changing that status. At present, we are gathering information and details on holding an IMAC World Championships in 2014. No doubt, this is a tremendous undertaking and there is a lot of research and action needed before we jump in feet first. Seven (7) countries have already indicated their interest in participating in an event such as this. Ahead of us are exciting times, but we still have doubters! Obviously, the economy has played havoc in our lives, however, working toward such an event and streamlining the hiccups along the way will underline IMAC's status as a growing sport. Your BOD is cognizant of what is happening and will act on areas that need to be worked on. What IS important: No "knee jerk" reaction!! It is HIGH TIME that we begin to peer over the fence of our backyards & see the world beyond rather than just being concerned ONLY with our immediate area. There is a big world out there that has adopted our Scale Aerobatics template. www.mini-iac.com/RegionsNA/Internat...fault.aspx Let us open our minds to what "could be"!! Regards, Wayne IMAC President |
|
| One thing you can give and still keep...is your word. |
|
|
james taylor
Veteran
Posts:411
IMAC #: 5569
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 20 Aug 2011 9:01 |
|
I'm not proposing that we pull out of AMA SIG status, at least not at this point. I'm just asking what the benefits are. As far as Liability Insurance goes, the host club would still be covered by AMA and a supplemental liability policy shouldn't cost very much.
Kevin, I'm like you, I don't know what the benefits are, hence the question. As for another group stepping in, we already have that with the pattern guys. |
|
| I gotta go to St. Somewhere.
Jimmy Buffett |
|
|
Gil R. Major
All Star
Posts:932
IMAC #: 3160
IMAC Region: SE
|
| 20 Aug 2011 10:48 |
|
Posted By james taylor on 20 Aug 2011 7:19
Now that I have my flame suit on, I'll pose another question. What benefit do we (IMAC) receive by being a SIG of AMA? Unless there are some benefits that I am not aware of, we could operate just as well, if not better, as an independent organization.
James, I went back a few post to your original statement - has there been something said or done to bring you to this thought? I am only asking so I may understand. |
|
| Sponsored by My Wife |
|
|
Bill Adams
Veteran
Posts:201
IMAC #: 4399
IMAC Region: SW
|
| 22 Aug 2011 20:55 |
|
Posted By james taylor on 20 Aug 2011 7:12
These discussions about sound have now reached a new level of ridiculous! Are we actually talking about downgrading a sound score for the comparf squeel!!!!!! That noise is soooooo far within what should be acceptable noise limits.
I only made that smart a$$ remark about the Comp Arf squeal because that was actually discussed on the FG forum. One guy admitted to downgrading the sound score because of it, and then a few jumped on him for doing it. In reality there is no criteria to downgrade the squeal, or not downgrade the squeal. I stated that I thought the spirit of the sound rule was to reward good throttle management along with the actual sound. Of course like all things judged, it will be very subjective. Bill |
|
| "I may be old, but my doctor says I have the thumbs of a 14 year old" |
|
|