Correct me if I am wrong on this one. If a pilot flies the loop with full roll manuever (sportsman #7) by flying a flat horizontal roll at the top of the loop, then he should be given a zero. The way I see this is he actually flew the wrong manuever by flying two half loops connected by a horizontal roll, thus a zero. Correct?

Dennis

Dennis,

The rule book is actually very clear on this

If there is a rolling element (roll, point rolls or snap) at the apex of the loop, it must be centered in the loop and flown on the arc of the loop itself (Fig. 36). Flying the roll on a line at the apex of the loop is at
least a two (2) point downgrade. If the roll is not centered, it must be downgraded .5 point for every five (5) degrees that it is off center.

O.K., I see where I'm incorrect that it should by rule be scored a zero, but the rule is NOT very clear on this because it says "at LEAST a two point deduction". How does a judge decide what "at least" means? I could deduct ten points and zero the manuever and still have judged it to the letter of the rule because ten points is "at least" two points. Correct?

Dennis

On looping manuevers you are supposed to take away one point for every time there is a radius change so if someone draws a straight line to do the roll then they change the radius 2 times,,,,,,, there is your 2 point deduction that person can do other things to get more deductions but they should get at least 2 points off just for the stright line. Hope this helps, BTW all this is covered in our judging schools.

Mark and Bill,

I want to thank you both for your replies. It's great that this forum exists to help with these types of questions.

Mark,

In response to your post specifically, the section on rolling elements in loops states:

If there is a rolling element (roll, point rolls or snap) at the apex of the loop, it must be centered in the loop and flown on the arc of the loop itself (Fig. 36). Flying the roll on a line at the apex of the loop is at least a two (2) point downgrade. If the roll is not centered, it must be downgraded .5 point for every five (5) degrees that it is off center.

So, the "at least a two point downgrade" verbage applies to the rolling on a line portion only. I understand that there can be other downgrades for other parts of the loop such as radius changes and heading changes etc. My hang up is the "at least" wording. To me it seems like the rule would be much simpler and clearer if it simply stated that "if the roll is flown on a line at the top of the loop, it is a two point downgrade." Adding "at least" leads one to believe that the downgrade is a minimum of two points, but it could be more.

This takes me back to my original post about scoring a zero because the wrong manuever was flown. Take the case to the extreme. A pilot starts the manuever with a half loop, then flies a 100' level inverted line, then completes a full horizontal roll, then flies another 100' inverted line, then completes a half loop to level to complete. All else being perfect, does the judge score an eight for the two point deduction for flying the roll on a line, or a zero for flying the wrong manuever?

BTW I did attend the judging school in JAX Fla last year, but could not attend this year. It's a very well presented training, but obviously can't cover everything in two days.

Thanks,
Dennis

In your example I would agree if the pilot flew 100 feet did a roll and then another 100 feet I would agree that he had stopped flying the loop and started something else then returned to the loop but that is very extreme.

Hmmm. How long does it take an aircraft to travel 100'? (at 60 mph)or(at 52.13 knots)?

Let's see.....100 feet = 0.01 miles now lets x that by 60 mph = 0.6 seconds

Things that make you say Hmm..... Processor overload!

Hummmmmmmmmm !

Actually it is 1.136364 seconds for an airplane to move 100 feet at 60 mph

Still not a whole lot of time when you neck hurts, shoeing the nats, and trying to keep track of all the other deductions with sweat dripping in your eyes.

And oh by the way, my roll element in this loop is not that flat thank you very much

Now go back to work

Yes, you are right! I missed something. I guess at 60 mph it will travel 88 feet per second. darn calculators.

Hey Gil,

I've learned that if you use the throttle correctly on the sportsman loop, you can let the plane do almost all the work. It's a matter of timing and just how much throttle to remove and have the nose follow through for you to maintain the radius. That was last year, I'm doing Intermediate this year and only did it with any real forethought on the sim. I tried it on my Carden Cap and was able to do it for real but it was UGLY. New plane, first few flights, no mixing or trim changes, just rusty thumbs.

Dennis,

A very simple way to explain this is when you encounter a grey area, it's up to you to develop a style and use it for everyone. At 100 feet I would still have other questions before I zero the maneuver like was the plane in motion in the roll axis during that 100 feet the whole time, meaning the pilot took excessively long to do the element, were there level lines before or after or before and after the element, etc....

For me:

100 feet to do an element on a line is somewhat excessive though not by much, I know most IMAC pilots I fly with like to setup ailerons so that a roll rate of 360 degrees per second at normal contest speed is a good starting point and adjust from there based on how the plane snaps so even if the pilot keeps the element on the radius, guess what, that element is going to take very close to 100 feet to do if all things are equal

This is a very good question and I'm glad you posted it.

One thing that stuck in my head was a comment made at the Fayetteville Flying and judging school that Kent made. He said” when in question- read the rule book”

So I did get mine out to see what it says about the family 7 loops. Please don’t take this as the answer as much as it is me wanting to learn how to be a judge.

F&J page 27-28- It is very clear that at least two points are deducted for a line before the roll, and then you should deduct at least two more points for the line after the roll. If he drew a short line before, the roll, and then a long line after, the rule gives the judge the option to deduct 2 points for the short line and then more than two points for the long line. As a (future) judge I would not ding the guy for a radius change due to the line, I think this would be double jeopardy.

First of all, the looping critiria does not change because of a roll on the loop. The loop itself is judged just as if there is no roll present. (The Radius of the loop) DownGrades:

Deductions are as follows:
1. As stated in first paragraph, .5 point per five degrees for perpendicular displacement.
2. A variation in the radius will be a one point deduction per occurrence.
3. Aircraft displaying any roll other than during a roll element on the loop, .5 point per five degrees of roll.
4. Flight path without any radius (straight line or ―flat spot‖), one point per occurrence.

So now if there is a line within the radius of a loop, There is at least a 2 point deduction for that figure reguardless of the roll or not. 1 point for a variation of radius, and 1 point for flight path without any radius. Thus 2 points.
The wording of "AT LEAST" refers to, assuming there are no other errors within that figure.
So if a loop with a roll on top has a flat spot, (where the roll is performed) and there are no other errors within that complete figure, then the deduction is ONLY 2 points. There is no other deduction for the length of the line (or flat spot) flown!!! Only if you as a judge precives the figure flown to have been a 1/2 loop with a roll on top. In other words, the pilot established a distinct horizontal line as to complete the figure, then realized it should have been a complete loop. Then the figure should be Zeroed, and a break penalty applied. But this is an EXTREME example.
The wording of at least does not mean the one error could be more than 2 points, it only means if every thing else within that figure is perfect!

Now for F&JG page 27-28, This is pretaining to 1/2 loops with rolls before or after the radius. If a line is flown between the radius and the roll, then there is "AT LEAST" a 2 point deduction. There again the words "AT LEAST" refer to every thing else within the figure was perfect. " Depending on the length of the line drawn" refers to establising a distinct horizontal line as to end the figure. ( Refer to rule 6.2.)... If the line flown is so long as to end the figure, then the figure should be zeroed, And the next figure should be zeroed also, or a break penalty would applied. (Refer to rule 6.3. Section c)

Hope I have not confused anyone. All of these rules fit together. Remember, the only exception to the end and begin of a figure are families 7.7 and 7.8...

Also remember rule 6.1. GRADING PRINCIPALS- NOTE A and E

6.1: Grading principles. When grading the quality of the performance of individual figures, judges should consider the following general principles:
a: The geometry of the figures (including the shape, radii, angles, flight path, direction of flight, heading and bank angle) must comply with the prescribed criteria.
b: The precision of the performance compared to the criteria as explained later in this guide.
c: The smoothness of the performance
d: The distinctly recognizable start and finish of each figure with a horizontal line.
e: The figure must be the one depicted on the flimsy (Form B or C) appropriate to the direction of the flight chosen by the pilot to perform and flown in its proper order within the sequence. For figures with a Y-axis component, it is the pilot‘s discretion, in addition to fly inbound or out bound, as to which direction to fly the turn, left or right. For Family 9, Rotational Elements it is the pilot‘s discretions to which direction to perform the roll or first roll, if it is unlinked roll combination. In all cases, the figure flown must have the entry and exit direction as depicted on the flimsy appropriate to the direction of flight chosen by the pilot to perform (Form B or C) in the X-axis.
f: The grading criteria of each component will apply in a combination figure so that one overall grade for the figure will result.
g: The length of the lines and the size of the radii caused by the flying characteristics of an aircraft are not to be taken into account in the grading.
h: Negative figures are graded by the same criteria as positive figures.
i: Speed of aircraft is not a criterion. A reduction of grade will be applied for each deviation from the prescribed criteria for the figure. The grade will be reduced by 0.5 points for each 5 degrees of deviation.

Thanks Kurtis I believe you did a better job of explaining it than I did !

Thanks again for all the input. I'm still a little hung up on the "at least" language, but I think I understand the intent. I have a competitive sailing background where the specific language in the rules was always a point of controversy, and indefinite terms such as "at least", or "almost", or "about", were avoided.

Dennis

Thanks alot! now my head hurts!

Well quit banging it against the wall !

Posted By Dennis Hawks on 06 Apr 2010 8:01
Thanks again for all the input. I'm still a little hung up on the "at least" language, but I think I understand the intent. I have a competitive sailing background where the specific language in the rules was always a point of controversy, and indefinite terms such as "at least", or "almost", or "about", were avoided.

Dennis

Dennis,

How about thinking "a minimum of" when you see "at least" while reading the rules. That may help.

Dennis

Also think of it as "a minimum of (or at least) depending on the additional deductions" seen in the rest of the manouver as it is flown and presented.

Ted