SC204
Rookie
Posts:13
IMAC #: 6204
IMAC Region: NE
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| 15 Sep 2009 20:50 |
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I know the pilot can choose the direction of flight. In the basic sequence if you fly what I assume would be the standard first maneuver upwind, then the roll is also upwind and the loop is downwind.
If you reverse the direction then the roll is downwind and the loop is upwind which seems more natural but then the 2 turn spin is downwind making it tough to stall where you want.
What is the general consensus from basic fliers on the better direction?
Thanks,
Stuart |
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Bill James
MVP
Posts:1823
IMAC #: 4230
IMAC Region: NE
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| 15 Sep 2009 20:58 |
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Stuart,
What I do is I fly the sequence based on fling the spin into the wind. That is using either my Extra260 or 330L
Now certain planes have a hard time stalling into the wind, they'll just mush along. In my experience judging many pilots and many different types of planes, it seems to me that pilots flying Yaks and Sukhois tend to fly the spin downwind to get it to break better.
So I guess I'm saying is to figure out which way you and your plane seem to work best and plan it that way |
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| -Bill James
People who say it cannot be done should
not interrupt those who are doing it.
http://www.stansphotos.com |
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Bob Barger
Rookie
Posts:7
IMAC #: 5410
IMAC Region: NE
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| 15 Sep 2009 21:31 |
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Good question, as a basic flier I also was asking myself that the other day when I tried the whole sequence. I fly a Edge 540 and tried the stall down wind and with full elevator ( low rates) flew right on by!  So I guess I will have to do a down wind loop to get my 2 turn spin up wind |
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Michael Dick
Rookie
Posts:32
IMAC #: 5733
IMAC Region: NW
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| 16 Sep 2009 13:57 |
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I would almost always choose to have the spin into the wind (especially in Basic), and rather fly a downwind loop. |
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Wayne Matthews
MVP
Posts:2670
IMAC #: 1294
IMAC Region: SE
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| 16 Sep 2009 14:31 |
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Hello there all... Each Known sequence is designed with specific expected results by the sequence committee. Even though many may not realize it, the loop was placed there so that the Basic pilot could learn HOW to perform a down-wind loop. The Basic pilot will need to learn these skills so that when he/she moves up in class, they will have a strong foundation on which to build.
Many may also not realize that the Spin for Basic is placed at the end of the sequence for specific reasons. Firstly, if it was placed earlier on in the sequence and because of lack of experience of a new competitor, they may set their idle too low, thus possibly shutting down & zeroing the rest of the sequence. At the end, they still could complete the sequence & land.
Also, placing it at the end of the sequence, & where it is positioned, if the pilot had a "flame-out, he/she would be in a good position to land the plane without too much difficulty.
There is MUCH more to sequence writing than meets the eye, guys! Ask the ISC...they can tell you.
Wayne |
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Bobby Folsom
Veteran
Posts:247
IMAC #: 2073
IMAC Region: SC
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| 16 Sep 2009 17:31 |
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I had to generate a flight mode to go to full up elevator and full rudder in order to get my Yak to spin. I still had trouble getting the Yak to spin consistently due to inconsistent idel. A bit of "richenin" on the low end solved that problem. Now I have to work on my timing!!
Bobby |
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Chris Elliott
Rookie
Posts:1
IMAC #: 5663
IMAC Region: NW
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| 01 Dec 2009 17:13 |
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The point is moot as next years sequence has both manouvers starting "into the wind" however if this comes up again, you should look at the "K" factor of the manouver. The spin has a higher "K" factor than the loop so you would want to do better on the spin than the loop if you had a choice. Its not much but could make the difference in winning a round or not.
Chris |
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vince
Rookie
Posts:59
IMAC #: 5919
IMAC Region: SC
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| 22 Jan 2010 0:25 |
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If you try to do your spin on the down wind leg you will run the high risk of zeroing it do to the fact you will most likly have to force your spin. If having trouble getting the nose to break while flying up wind be patient, It may take longer than you expect but it will stall and break allowing you to properly do the manuver. |
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Bill James
MVP
Posts:1823
IMAC #: 4230
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| 22 Jan 2010 7:05 |
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Another thing that works well, at least for me, in getting a plane to spin when you want it too is to not hold full up elevator. Leave that last little bit, say 10%, on the stick. Then when you are ready and the plane is very slow, add that 10%, those nose will come up and it will stall. My Extra 260 had an issue with stalling and after some practice, I could get it to stall whenever I was ready.
Being very slow is the key here, if you are too fast the plane will climb and points will come off. It's fine if the nose goes up, as long as the CG point does not change it's position on it's line |
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| -Bill James
People who say it cannot be done should
not interrupt those who are doing it.
http://www.stansphotos.com |
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Mark Mcclellan
MVP
Posts:3689
IMAC #: 2711
IMAC Region: SE
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| 22 Jan 2010 7:13 |
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With enough elevator any plane will stall. |
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| Was the Southeast RD 2009-2010 |
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Bill James
MVP
Posts:1823
IMAC #: 4230
IMAC Region: NE
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| 22 Jan 2010 7:18 |
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Posted By Mark Mcclellan on 22 Jan 2010 7:13
With enough elevator any plane will stall.
Agreed and given fast enough it will certainly stall but you risk changing your line, but in a headwind, sometimes I had issues with mushing, I got tired of playing with the elevator settings, so I put it back to where I needed it for everything else and did what I explained which worked best for me. You mileage my vary  |
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| -Bill James
People who say it cannot be done should
not interrupt those who are doing it.
http://www.stansphotos.com |
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Kent Porter
MVP
Posts:1085
IMAC #: 3730
IMAC Region: SE
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| 22 Jan 2010 7:48 |
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Posted By vince on 22 Jan 2010 0:25
If you try to do your spin on the down wind leg you will run the high risk of zeroing it do to the fact you will most likly have to force your spin. If having trouble getting the nose to break while flying up wind be patient, It may take longer than you expect but it will stall and break allowing you to properly do the manuver.
Be careful while reading this statement as there are some judges that already have zeros planned for pilots that choose to spin down wind! This is not acceptable! “JUDGE EACH MANEUVER AS IF IT’S THE ONLY ONE BEING FLOWN!” By Wayne Matthews 2007 |
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Curtis Cozier
MVP
Posts:2181
IMAC #: 4686
IMAC Region: SE
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| 22 Jan 2010 9:10 |
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Very true Kent.....
In Adv and Unl, it is not uncommon for a pilot to choose to do the spin down wind in order to do the roller into the wind....
there is NOTHING wrong with doing a down wind spin, judges must remember that they will look a bit different, but they still must be judged by the SAME criteria |
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| SE Regional Director/Judging Instructor/IMAC Sequence committee/Team Futaba/Extreme Flight R/C
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vince
Rookie
Posts:59
IMAC #: 5919
IMAC Region: SC
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| 10 Feb 2010 0:42 |
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yes by all means judge each maneuver. I was pointing out the fact , given this is a new pilot to IMAC that he runs the risk " as a new pilot". of forcing his spin by going downwind. NOw here where we fly a downwind may be up to 20-30mph. so by al means be carefull while reading my post. just stating fact. If you force your spin you will be ZEROED. this is a higher risk by doing it downwind. |
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Kent Porter
MVP
Posts:1085
IMAC #: 3730
IMAC Region: SE
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| 10 Feb 2010 8:09 |
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Posted By vince on 10 Feb 2010 0:42
yes by all means judge each maneuver. I was pointing out the fact , given this is a new pilot to IMAC that he runs the risk " as a new pilot". of forcing his spin by going downwind. NOw here where we fly a downwind may be up to 20-30mph. so by al means be carefull while reading my post. just stating fact. If you force your spin you will be ZEROED. this is a higher risk by doing it downwind.
Please be careful of the verbiage used as it will confuse us. This is straight from our Flying and Judging Guide. So... A Forced Entry into a spin is not a mandatory zero. F&JG-42
8.9.5 Family 9.11- 9.12 Spins Normal spins (upright spins entered from upright flight, or inverted spins entered from inverted flight): When the aircraft stalls, the nose will fall and at the same time the wing tip will drop in the direction of the spin. Failure to achieve this should be considered a “forced entry” and downgraded 0.5 points per 5 degrees of deviation. |
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Curtis Cozier
MVP
Posts:2181
IMAC #: 4686
IMAC Region: SE
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| 10 Feb 2010 8:38 |
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THanks Kent...
Yep.. Per our Rule book.. and this was discussed at our recent Judging seminar.. we have to be very careful how we use the term "forced Entry" |
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| SE Regional Director/Judging Instructor/IMAC Sequence committee/Team Futaba/Extreme Flight R/C
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Wayne Matthews
MVP
Posts:2670
IMAC #: 1294
IMAC Region: SE
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| 10 Feb 2010 8:39 |
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Posted By vince on 10 Feb 2010 0:42
yes by all means judge each maneuver. I was pointing out the fact , given this is a new pilot to IMAC that he runs the risk " as a new pilot". of forcing his spin by going downwind. NOw here where we fly a downwind may be up to 20-30mph. so by al means be carefull while reading my post. just stating fact. If you force your spin you will be ZEROED. this is a higher risk by doing it downwind.
Vince...can you please define for us what you term as a "forced spin"? So that we can all understand what you mean. Wayne |
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Bill James
MVP
Posts:1823
IMAC #: 4230
IMAC Region: NE
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| 10 Feb 2010 21:12 |
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Since we are talking spins, here is one that I have seen and want to see what everyone else thinks
A pilot is flying along, nose coming up and all of a sudden I see the tail rise above the line of track the plane is taking and the nose go down then rotation starting.
As far as I can see, this indicates to me that the pilot has used down elevator to get the nose to "drop" and as such I zeroed it because I never saw a stall
To me a plane just before the moment of the stall will have the nose up and tail down. When the stall happens the nose comes down and the tail pretty much stays on the line it was on just before the stall
Thoughts? |
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| -Bill James
People who say it cannot be done should
not interrupt those who are doing it.
http://www.stansphotos.com |
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Gil R. Major
All Star
Posts:849
IMAC #: 3160
IMAC Region: SE
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| 10 Feb 2010 21:15 |
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Is that what you are calling a forced spin? |
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Bill James
MVP
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IMAC #: 4230
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| 10 Feb 2010 21:28 |
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The way I understand it is a spin can only happen when a stalled condition occurs and since seeing the tail rise before the nose drops do to a stall, tells me the stall has not happened and since the stall must happen for a proper spin I feel in this situation, the spin is not valid since the stall never happened
What happens after a proper stall condition is reached is where the forced part of the rule comes into play
I'm just making sure I am scoring this correctly. I saw it at last years NATS by a couple of the unlimited plots and a few of the basic pilots in our region this past season |
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| -Bill James
People who say it cannot be done should
not interrupt those who are doing it.
http://www.stansphotos.com |
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Kurtis Waites
Veteran
Posts:230
IMAC #: 4553
IMAC Region: SE
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| 10 Feb 2010 21:46 |
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I would advise to finish reading the rule and not take one sentence out of the context of the complete spin critiria. The remainder of the rule will answer your questions. Hopefully!!
Kurtis |
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| "IMAC is only as good as the judging" |
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Bill James
MVP
Posts:1823
IMAC #: 4230
IMAC Region: NE
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| 10 Feb 2010 21:54 |
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Posted By Kurtis Waites on 10 Feb 2010 21:46
I would advise to finish reading the rule and not take one sentence out of the context of the complete spin critiria. The remainder of the rule will answer your questions. Hopefully!!
Kurtis
Kurtis, If you are speaking to me I was just trying to get everyone thinking, that's all |
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| -Bill James
People who say it cannot be done should
not interrupt those who are doing it.
http://www.stansphotos.com |
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vince
Rookie
Posts:59
IMAC #: 5919
IMAC Region: SC
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| 10 Feb 2010 23:58 |
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Normal spins (upright spins entered from upright flight, or inverted spins entered from inverted flight): When the aircraft stalls, the nose will fall and at the same time the wing tip will
drop in the direction of the spin. Failure to achieve this should be considered a “forced entry” and downgraded 0.5 points per 5 degrees of deviation.
If you start your spin prior to the nose break by rule = forced entry each 5 degress is .5 pt How do you keep from zeroing if you continue your spin ? thats atleast 180 degress. Not to mention that you didn't even start it off correctly to begin with. degress are not measured by hands of a clock. So if you don't stall and add in aleron to get a spin started that is what i would call a forced spin. you forced it to spin and are continue to force it due to the fact you never stall to begine with. Now back to the issue of a basic pilot doing a spin on the downwind Like I said before it is a higher risk for that basic pilot to Force a spin due to the FACT that it is harder to stall the nose on a downwind then upwind. for that basic pilot. |
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Kurtis Waites
Veteran
Posts:230
IMAC #: 4553
IMAC Region: SE
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| 11 Feb 2010 2:06 |
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Posted By Bill James on 10 Feb 2010 21:28
What happens after a proper stall condition is reached is where the forced part of the rule comes into play
Bill, I am not talking about you. This statment is true. To sum it up, the stall and autorotation should occur at the same time. The forced entry is refering to the autorotation. ( forcing autorotation after the stall of the aircraft has occured ) Once an aircraft has stalled, the nose falls, or somtimes the complete aircraft just falls,( mushes ) This is where the deduction is done. .5 per 5 degrees deviation from horizontal flight path prior to autorotation starting. Now, If the aircraft never comes to a stalled state in horizontal flight, the entire figure shall be zerod. If the aircraft never stalls, it is apparent that it cannot spin, and a zero(0) must be given. You will see “simulated” spins where barrel rolls or snap rolls are offered as spin entries. In both cases, the flight path will not be downward. In all those cases, the figure will be zeroed. Notice the word "simulated" The stall never happened, therefore a spin can not happen. Same with pushing elevator, spin never happened so the fig. shall be zeroed. This is where a judge has to pay very, very close attention to a downwind spin because the aircraft will look as if is a "simulated" spin when in fact the aircraft did stall and go into autorotation at the same time. Key points of view for spins are very critical on downwind spins. Kurtis |
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Gil R. Major
All Star
Posts:849
IMAC #: 3160
IMAC Region: SE
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| 11 Feb 2010 6:24 |
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Did the nose down pitch drop the CG or was the nose down pitch around the CG.
The CG being somewhere in the first few inches of the the leading edge of the wing. IF there is a stall it stands to reason the CG would drop.
In Bill's example above the rotation would appear to be around the CG - tail up nose down - no stall.
??????????? |
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Kent Porter
MVP
Posts:1085
IMAC #: 3730
IMAC Region: SE
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| 11 Feb 2010 7:15 |
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With all due respect here.
It is mostly impossible to give precise answers to "what if" situations. Especially on the Internet. This is why we (IMAC Instructors) offer F&J Seminars and break off classes ('advanced") to discuss the "what if" situations. The "what ifs" here on the forums become very confusing and may cause more harm than good. This is why I only quote our F&J G and not my perceptions here online. Just food for thought....
Kp |
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Bill James
MVP
Posts:1823
IMAC #: 4230
IMAC Region: NE
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| 11 Feb 2010 7:34 |
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Kent, While I agree with you to a point, some people just do not make the seminars for various reasons and that is why we have the IMAC forums, to share information. Granted, they can get rather emotional and that is what frustrates me the most, but it is what it is. Kurtis, I did not think you were referring to me but I had some doubt so I thought I would ask, no problems on my end at all. Gil, In all the cases I've seen of my example where it involved a Basic pilot, it was very clear that the tail came up first. One or two came to one of my primers and I found out that the experts at their local field told them that is how you do a spin. The more advanced pilots hide it very well but once you see it you will know and it leaves no doubt. Everyone, Again all of the above is food for thought about getting people to our seminars and holding training sessions (Primers, Bootcamps or whatever you want to call them). These training sessions have become hugely popular in our region, I have 6 requests for this year above what we did last year. While we only get a small handful that actually do come and compete, we also are helping others to become better pilots so in the end we are doing good for the hobby overall. Besides, doing these are fun, at least to me and I get to fly various planes at different locations throughout our region  |
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| -Bill James
People who say it cannot be done should
not interrupt those who are doing it.
http://www.stansphotos.com |
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Dan Baker
Veteran
Posts:235
IMAC #: 1701
IMAC Region: SE
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| 11 Feb 2010 19:05 |
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Posted By vince on 10 Feb 2010 23:58
If you start your spin prior to the nose break by rule = forced entry each 5 degress is .5 pt How do you keep from zeroing if you continue your spin ? thats atleast 180 degress. Not to mention that you didn't even start it off correctly to begin with.
Vince: The pilot will "point out" after 90 degrees. Not 180.
Hope this helps,
Dan Baker |
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vince
Rookie
Posts:59
IMAC #: 5919
IMAC Region: SC
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| 11 Feb 2010 22:17 |
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correct dan meant to change it but didn't really meant to put 360 since most basic guys have one full spin. LOL By the way how are you doing ready for the new season? |
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Squez
Rookie
Posts:1
IMAC #: 6499
IMAC Region: NW
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| 28 Jul 2010 1:45 |
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My question then is: If the nose breaks and say the left wingtip drops and the pilot then spins to the right, is it a zero or a .5 point deduction per degree in which case would be a zero since it went through 360 degrees of turn. Valid question? |
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Steve Stanton
Veteran
Posts:200
IMAC #: 4707
IMAC Region: NE
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| 28 Jul 2010 12:09 |
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This is my second year competing in IMAC and based on my experience during that time, The "Spin" is the most contravercial manuver of all. To make matters worse (my oppion) there are glaring inadaquecies in the rule book which are ment to describe and illustrate the manuver. This of coarse, leaves the judging of the munuver up for wide spread interpretation. I make it a point, after every round, with each new judge, to ask how I did on the Spin. Most of the time (fortunatly), there are obvious mistakes that can be easily detected by the judges and that I am aware of myself. But you can't beleive some of the commentary. Never the less, nothing is perfect and I'm really happy to see the recent efforts and emphasis on improving the consistancy of judging and making the judging criteria more accesable. I attended the last judging siminar in our region and I thought it was of great value as a compedetor. I believe it is the responsability of each compeditor to know how each manuver is judged. It does become a little frustrating however, when the criteria is vague and interpretation is uncertain. |
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Bobby Folsom
Veteran
Posts:247
IMAC #: 2073
IMAC Region: SC
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| 29 Jul 2010 17:05 |
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Steve, go to the Training Library and look at the IMAC on-line training program. You will learn a lot. There is a section on spins which even has some videos to show more common "mistakes".
Bobby |
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Bill James
MVP
Posts:1823
IMAC #: 4230
IMAC Region: NE
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| 29 Jul 2010 17:42 |
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Steve,
If the chance presents itself, come scribe for me this weekend and I'll help you see what needs to be seen so you have a better idea of what you need to do to make sure there can be no question.
I cannot be there on Friday do to issues you are familiar with but nothing says I cannot work with you on Saturday after hours as well |
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| -Bill James
People who say it cannot be done should
not interrupt those who are doing it.
http://www.stansphotos.com |
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Steve Stanton
Veteran
Posts:200
IMAC #: 4707
IMAC Region: NE
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| 05 Aug 2010 10:37 |
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I looked on the training library site but I couldn't figure out how to get to the video. Can someone help. Thanks, Steve |
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Steve Stanton
Veteran
Posts:200
IMAC #: 4707
IMAC Region: NE
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| 05 Aug 2010 11:50 |
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I found the videos in the "judging school" and I have to say, this is great stuff. The part that still seems a little difficult to define, is the "Stall". I guess what I'm used to seeing is the Nose raise and then fall as the result of the Stall. In the video, you clearly see the plane slow down, then go into a spin but I'm not clear on how you determined if it actually Stalled. |
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Bill James
MVP
Posts:1823
IMAC #: 4230
IMAC Region: NE
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| 08 Aug 2010 15:25 |
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Steve,
One of many things that influence how the stall "looks" is the type of plane. Then the next thing I see the most of is if the stall is being performed into or with the wind. If done into the wind, some planes will not raise the nose very much and the break into the stall with be much more subtle where a stall performed with the wind will be much more pronounced as the nose is going to have to come quite a bit higher to get the angle of attack just right
Another thing to remember is a plane may not and does not have to come to a complete stop to actually stall.
If you are looking at this as a pilot, then the way I showed you will certainly not leave any doubt as to the stall happening.
If you are looking at this from a judging standpoint, then it will come with experience.
Maybe we can get a few guys together from different classes to help you learn to see the stall with different planes and circumstances.
I guess what I'm saying is the nose is key, you should see it drop, though it may be only a very little bit
As a judge you have to be careful, I've seen great pilots get in too much of a hurry and force the nose over with elevator but once you see it you will know what happened. You will actually see the tail come up followed by the nose dropping. |
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| -Bill James
People who say it cannot be done should
not interrupt those who are doing it.
http://www.stansphotos.com |
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