just wondering why a 3 blade is required for the imac contest but no holds barred at nall. is the contest at a different venue?

also while im here...i know i fly fast..and low..and look rushed so why no 10's on acs? lol

Hi Jeff.... previously, that was what Mr. Hartness required at the IMAC contests. Maybe Kent can advise further.
W

The golden rule . . . he who has the gold gets to make the rules.

I spoke with Mr. Hartness about this and he said 3 blade and cans or you don't fly.

Posted By tl3 on 15 May 2010 17:55
The golden rule . . . he who has the gold gets to make the rules.

there you go,,,,,, Ty is right like always !

Think Kent should be the one asking Mr. Hartness. Maybe he would require 3 blades only! Let us know if you speak to him Kent.

I have been thinking about buying Triple Tree?

Posted By jeff whitaker on 15 May 2010 7:29
no holds barred at nall.

and sadly.. IMveryHO this will be the death of Joe Nall...

Mr. Pat has hoped that people would be responsible and step up and respect the neighbors on their own...

and most pilots refuse to.

He is getting tired of it....

Oh, and the idiots that think ripping the props at 6:00am is "cool" are not helping AT ALL.....

trust me.

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Hartness last week at the Nall and had a good conversation about the noise problems. He made a really good point that at RC events the noise is constant, someone is always in the air. The full scale events are louder but not continuous, therefore generating a lot less complaints from the neighbors. Don't be surprised if there are restrictions at future Joe Nall events! I also met one of the neighbors. Bought him a beer and thanked him for the tolerance. He said that when he had friends come over when an event was going on, he just told them is was a weed wacker convention. Got to love a good sense of humor!!!!
Doc

Weed wackers and leaf blowers !

So Why doesn't Pat put the hammer down for the NAll and mandate 3 blades and cans for ALL at all of his events?

Well except of course for a Turbine.

Honestly have no idea.....

Hey now leave my turbines alone

It was definitely loud at times and 6am was just plain obnoxious, glad I couldn't hear it through the RV walls unlike last year hearing it through tent walls.

This is interesting in that on my EF Yak DA 100L w. RE2's, I spent the $135 and bought the DA recommended Mej 3 bladed prop. 25 x 12 x 3 I believe it was. I was trying to be a good citizen at my home field.
Frankly the plane performed very poorly and had lost all the upline power it had on the 28 x 10 mej which is a bit loud if you let it be.
I then spoke with Chris H of EF about this and he said that they had tested all sorts of 3 bladed props on that enging, plane pipe comby and that the 100 just doen't have enough power to run a 3 blader.
So what am I to do?? Just keep testing more 3 bladers when I have been told they won't work very well? Not fly up there?
Give up on a 100cc and go bigger?

Terry

i have the same set up....if you have the correct header length the 28x12 2 blade is best for that thing.

While it is not going to be ballistic... it can still fly on the 3 blade....

keep the 3 blade for when you need it, fly the 2 blade when you can....

I have flown the 100 on cans with a 3blade on the 110" Yak... while it is not stellar on power... it was capable of flying the adv. and Unl sequences....

Charles just purchased a Mejzlik 25x12s and he is running KS1060 tune pipes in the EF 110" Yak. Straight line veritical is unlimited. It appears to be plenty of power. It is a little down on power from the 28x10 2 blade, but still flies well. It is however, much quieter, not that it was loud with the 2 blade.

Posted By Phyllis on 23 May 2010 20:39
Charles just purchased a Mejzlik 25x12s and he is running KS1060 tune pipes in the EF 110" Yak. Straight line vertical is unlimited. It appears to be plenty of power. It is a little down on power from the 28x10 2 blade, but still flies well. It is however, much quieter, not that it was loud with the 2 blade.

Hip Hip Hurray!

Terry,.....................Hmmmmm,

I have a 32% Carden Yak that comes in at 28.5 lbs dry. I am running a DA100L on KS86 rear exhaust, stock headers with a Mezj 25 x 12 - 3 bldae and have pretty much unlimited vertical at 5/8 throttle. Yes it doesn't PUNCH out like it would with the 28x10 but no way does it have "limited power". Ihink I am also running a bit rich right now. Oh ya and 84db at 25', 93 db@ 10 feet - club standard is 98 @ 10 ft, for soundtest.

What altitude are you at? I am about 630 ft ASL.

Posted By Jim Daly on 21 May 2010 15:49
So Why doesn't Pat put the hammer down for the NAll and mandate 3 blades and cans for ALL at all of his events?

Well except of course for a Turbine.

Because then there would be no joenall flyin,, warbirds make up 1/3 of whats at nall if not more,, they would not attend,, and alot of aerobatics guys would not convert over because of the cost,, so that is really not a option,, if he was to do that he might as well do away with the nall flyin,, I would rather go to the huckfest or something,,

Guy's, first thanks for the responses.

It was a 25 x 12S x 3 Mej that I tested and on the vertical side, it was not good after a single snap roll on the vertical up line. Another nasty tendency it had was torque induced rolling from the prop. Also seemed like the prop didn't extend far enough beyond the cowl of the EF Yak to be effecient.
This particular plane is relatively light (in the 28lb area) and the engine makes good power with a 28 x 10 Mej and has good pull in all configurations (punchout is not a concern of mine as I don't 3D this plane).
Correct me if I'm wrong here guys but it seems to me that with this plane and based on what I am hearing you say, a 25 x 12S x 3 is a compromise at best that will not fly any where near as well as a 2 bladed prop.
Don't get me wrong, I wanted to run a 3 bladed prop. Liked how quiet it was as well as down line breaking.
I wonder if it's the "S" version of this prop that is causing the problems for me.
BTW, I sold that prop after the testing went so poorly.

Jim,
It sounds like the combination is working very well for you. I have header lengths of 13.25" w/ RE2 pipes which are about 2" longer that the stock lengths. The extensions were needed to tame the poor throttle transition which was digital like at the stock lengths.

Terry

It's also interesting to note that DA calls for a 25 x 12N x 3 for the DA100 motor and not the 25 x 12S x 3.
I don't understand the differences and couldn't find any info between the "N" and "S", any help here?

Terry

The "S" has a higher load factor. On Pe's spreadsheet the prop constant for the "S" is higher, so it will take more work from the engine to turn it.

So, for clarification please.....

IS IT MANDATORY FOR CANS AND 3 BLADES FOR THE IMAC AT TT?

Threre is no mention of it on registration page that I could find. If it is the case, WE will not be able to attend. It is an 8 hour 500mile drive I would happily make, but I already have a $227 3blade on my plane, I cannot afford to add another $1k in exhaust JUST so I can participate at this event. My oldest son has a pipe going in his plane and planning on a 2blade, my younger has a can and 2blade, but being a kid, has no funds for another prop just to be able to participate.


Maybe Kent can use his power of the CD and just ground the obnoxious....

Unfortunately it is not my say. Mr. Hartness has the last word on this subject and he is unavailable at this time to answer any questions. I have had a few pilots ask if I would ask for exceptions and I have done this and waiting for a reply. I have climbed out on a limb here so please bare with us as we prepare for this event.

Thanks for understanding,

Kent Porter

Thanks Kent for your effort.
I also was planing on attending but won't be able to if 3 bladed is required.

Terry

Posted By KnowCrashes on 24 May 2010 20:24
So, for clarification please.....

IS IT MANDATORY FOR CANS AND 3 BLADES FOR THE IMAC AT TT?

Threre is no mention of it on registration page that I could find. If it is the case, WE will not be able to attend. It is an 8 hour 500mile drive I would happily make, but I already have a $227 3blade on my plane, I cannot afford to add another $1k in exhaust JUST so I can participate at this event. My oldest son has a pipe going in his plane and planning on a 2blade, my younger has a can and 2blade, but being a kid, has no funds for another prop just to be able to participate.


Maybe Kent can use his power of the CD and just ground the obnoxious....

Mr. Keene, I’m disappointed with the decision that requires three blade props and cans too. I was looking forward to flying with you at T.T.. It looks like you have a good run going to the SE regional point’s race. Bill Harden and I were talking at the last contest about how much fun a tight competition with you guys would be.

My first reaction is to just stay home as well even though I have a 3 blade and cans. I don’t think it is fair to ask someone to spend that kind of money on something that may or may not be any less noisy than what you have.

Maybe they will change their mind and go by the rule book and just enforce the 96db limit. Then everyone could just limit the throttle throw until they pass the ground test. I’m not suggesting a cheat switch, but a limit that you would also fly by.

Gang, it's only a matter of time, before this is the mandatory norm, except in the desert, or out in the middle of no where. This is another reason why some of us endorsed getting it done now, and preparing for 2011; with three blades and cannisters, One thing is for sure, sooner than later it will be "We told you so".
All conversations, and projections point this direction. The question is what can we do technology wise to further quieten our planes... no doubt here.. three blades, and cannisters do make the most improvement, compared to anything we have. Of course better exhaust systems needs to be developed etc.
I support Mr. Hartness's commitments to his neighbors, and the community!
Don

Posted By Don Hamilton on 25 May 2010 9:24
Gang, it's only a matter of time, before this is the mandatory norm, except in the desert, or out in the middle of no where. This is another reason why some of us endorsed getting it done now, and preparing for 2011; with three blades and cannisters, One thing is for sure, sooner than later it will be "We told you so".
All conversations, and projections point this direction. The question is what can we do technology wise to further quieten our planes... no doubt here.. three blades, and cannisters do make the most improvement, compared to anything we have. Of course better exhaust systems needs to be developed etc.
I support Mr. Hartness's commitments to his neighbors, and the community!
Don

Looks like I should go ahead and sell my equipment now since we all know even with cannisters and 3-blades that ripping can still occur. There seriously needs to be a better way to do this, like CD's manning up and grounding obnoxiously loud airplanes.

Of course it's a no brainer, the pilot needs to equip the plane with the correct prop, that provided the best overall balance between noise and performance as well.... throttle mangemnet is a given mandatory right off the bat... CD's have failed miserable already, as we have and still have political issues at fields today, 10 yrs of imac, i've never seen a cd send someone home, i did as a cd demand a pilot change props, or pack it home.. he did, and did well for the rest of the contest.
Don

Just as you said it, throttle management is a given. Why should all contestants be subjected to requiring cannisters/3-blade due to a small few that cannot use throttle management and CD's/Judges that cannot do what needs to be done? The "correct" prop could be a two blade that could be quiet enough, as in my case where I'm using a PT 28 x 10 on a DA 85 and cannot get the prop to rip in WOT flight across the field.

Christopher

RIPing props is a given no no!!! Of more concern is the FAA, they are pushing very hard to limit our attitude to something very tight!.. Many, restrictions are on the horizin, and to be clear, they are not made,suggested, or born of imac... other outside agancies are watching, and LISTENING...

I believe Triple Tree has had this rule for the past 2 or 3 IMAC contest that have been there. I dont look for this to change at all. Even at the Youth Masters we still have to do the same thing. I know I will be switching to my three blade after my first Georgia contest probably so I can at least practice one contest with the three blade on there. It sucks but rules are rules.

And btw dont dare mention the whole sound issue on flying giants. lmao!

Posted By Ckeene9 on 25 May 2010 13:16
Just as you said it, throttle management is a given. Why should all contestants be subjected to requiring cannisters/3-blade due to a small few that cannot use throttle management and CD's/Judges that cannot do what needs to be done?

Christopher

Chris....please remember the original subject of this thread.... "Why a 3 blade at Triple Tree"?

The reality is very simple: The OWNER of the property said that is what he wants when an IMAC contest is flown there. Pat Hartness required the SAME set-up when the Don Lowe Masters was held there the last time.

So..... we either put on 3 blade props & cannister mufflers to fly at an IMAC Triple Tree contest or don't put any on & then come up to judge!
Wayne

Posted By Wayne Matthews on 25 May 2010 14:46

Posted By Ckeene9 on 25 May 2010 13:16
Just as you said it, throttle management is a given. Why should all contestants be subjected to requiring cannisters/3-blade due to a small few that cannot use throttle management and CD's/Judges that cannot do what needs to be done?

Christopher

Chris....please remember the original subject of this thread.... "Why a 3 blade at Triple Tree"?

The reality is very simple: The OWNER of the property said that is what he wants when an IMAC contest is flown there. Pat Hartness required the SAME set-up when the Don Lowe Masters was held there the last time.

So..... we either put on 3 blade props & cannister mufflers to fly at an IMAC Triple Tree contest or don't put any on & then come up to judge!
Wayne

Come and judge.... I like that! Thanks Wayne

Sorry guys guess I wasn't clear and we got off on a tangent. Don mentioned in a previous post that in time it would be a mandatory norm for cannisters/3-blade, where I got sidetracked. I understand that Mr. Hartness is requiring it for this event.

just got my 28.5x12 and spinner hub...trying a little different paint job on the spinner this time. im looking forward to seeing the difference on the 260.

btw, i started this thread out of ignorance since i have never attended nall or triple tree. I just did not know why a 3 day imac event would have restrictions and not a 1 week nut fest.

also i need some P.R. to feed the wife about coming to T.T. guys bringing family or what? Primo, P.R. is not Puerto Rico.

Posted By jeff whitaker on 25 May 2010 17:39
just got my 28.5x12 and spinner hub...trying a little different paint job on the spinner this time. im looking forward to seeing the difference on the 260.

btw, i started this thread out of ignorance since i have never attended nall or triple tree. I just did not know why a 3 day imac event would have restrictions and not a 1 week nut fest.

also i need some P.R. to feed the wife about coming to T.T. guys bringing family or what? Primo, P.R. is not Puerto Rico.

Jeff,
Thank you for your effort and interest in the Triple Tree IMAC. I am really looking forward to CD'ing this event. It is very family oriented and I would be disappointed if you did not bring your family with you. There is so much to do and see at Triple Tree. Be sure to bring your fishing gear also. There are nature trails and also a full scale hanger full of aeromodelling history, You just need to see it for yourself. We will carry things out as the traditional IMAC contest held there in the past CD'ed by Stan Stockman founder of the Triple Tree IMAC Classic. The Confederate Air Farce enjoys having the SA (IMAC) crowd there for the weekend. We will also enjoy each others company after hours behind the hanger for dinner Friday and Saturday night. I will release the flyer as soon as I get information from the BOSS.

Thank you,

Kent Porter

Back to the original question....


It is not stated on the reg page, so what is the real deal??

Posted By Jerry Hailey on 25 May 2010 9:06

Posted By KnowCrashes on 24 May 2010 20:24
So, for clarification please.....

IS IT MANDATORY FOR CANS AND 3 BLADES FOR THE IMAC AT TT?

Threre is no mention of it on registration page that I could find. If it is the case, WE will not be able to attend. It is an 8 hour 500mile drive I would happily make, but I already have a $227 3blade on my plane, I cannot afford to add another $1k in exhaust JUST so I can participate at this event. My oldest son has a pipe going in his plane and planning on a 2blade, my younger has a can and 2blade, but being a kid, has no funds for another prop just to be able to participate.


Maybe Kent can use his power of the CD and just ground the obnoxious....

Mr. Keene, I’m disappointed with the decision that requires three blade props and cans too. I was looking forward to flying with you at T.T.. It looks like you have a good run going to the SE regional point’s race. Bill Harden and I were talking at the last contest about how much fun a tight competition with you guys would be.

My first reaction is to just stay home as well even though I have a 3 blade and cans. I don’t think it is fair to ask someone to spend that kind of money on something that may or may not be any less noisy than what you have.

Maybe they will change their mind and go by the rule book and just enforce the 96db limit. Then everyone could just limit the throttle throw until they pass the ground test. I’m not suggesting a cheat switch, but a limit that you would also fly by.

Jerry,

Thanks for the thoughts, it would be a blast to have the top 4 or 5 guys in class there dukein' it out.... kinda like a mini regional championship...

BTW Mr. Keene is how my dad was addressed..... (he was a teacher:w00t




PS Were you at Ocala last year with Primo??

Kirby

For now three blades and canister style exhuast required.

Kp

Kent,

Would love to be there.....

But will not cannot under these conditions...

I can speak for myself and my boys, we KNOW how to use the left stick appropriately and are not obnoxious with the throttle.

Matter of fact, we are 3 of only 5 pilots at our club that are approved to fly gas power due to noise concerns of the neighbors. (The field is within a subdivision)

Posted By KnowCrashes on 25 May 2010 19:19

Posted By Jerry Hailey on 25 May 2010 9:06

Posted By KnowCrashes on 24 May 2010 20:24
So, for clarification please.....

IS IT MANDATORY FOR CANS AND 3 BLADES FOR THE IMAC AT TT?

Threre is no mention of it on registration page that I could find. If it is the case, WE will not be able to attend. It is an 8 hour 500mile drive I would happily make, but I already have a $227 3blade on my plane, I cannot afford to add another $1k in exhaust JUST so I can participate at this event. My oldest son has a pipe going in his plane and planning on a 2blade, my younger has a can and 2blade, but being a kid, has no funds for another prop just to be able to participate.


Maybe Kent can use his power of the CD and just ground the obnoxious....

Mr. Keene, I’m disappointed with the decision that requires three blade props and cans too. I was looking forward to flying with you at T.T.. It looks like you have a good run going to the SE regional point’s race. Bill Harden and I were talking at the last contest about how much fun a tight competition with you guys would be.

My first reaction is to just stay home as well even though I have a 3 blade and cans. I don’t think it is fair to ask someone to spend that kind of money on something that may or may not be any less noisy than what you have.

Maybe they will change their mind and go by the rule book and just enforce the 96db limit. Then everyone could just limit the throttle throw until they pass the ground test. I’m not suggesting a cheat switch, but a limit that you would also fly by.

Jerry,

Thanks for the thoughts, it would be a blast to have the top 4 or 5 guys in class there dukein' it out.... kinda like a mini regional championship...

BTW Mr. Keene is how my dad was addressed..... (he was a teacher:w00t




PS Were you at Ocala last year with Primo??

Kirby

Okay, Kirby it is.

Don, Wayne, Kent, and other have made a good point. Let's play along with the rules and do the best we can to limit noise.

So, if you need a 25x12s three blade, I have a spare you are welcome to use for the event. What ever it takes, let’s have that little regional points race at Triple Tree.

Yes I was at the Ocala event with Primo. We lost my Yak on Friday and did not fly in the contest. That was my second IMAC event and I used the time to walk around and see how things worked. That was a nice group of guys in Ocala, I had a blast.

Jerry,

Thanks for the offer. I have a 3blader on my plane, but I do not have cans and will not be able to add cans. Can set up for my engine would cost about $1000.00. or so....

Do you know of anyone that has a 24x12 3 blade for sale cheap?? If so, we might be able to do something as one son has a can in his plane, the other son has a pipe


That brings another question........



Are pipes allowed??? Is the rule CANS only?????


Seems a little grey here. I'm not trying to stir the pot here, and I understand the golden rule, but this will limit some otherwise capable plane/pilot combos from competing......such as Brian Luckett.............

Kirby,
Check these out
http://www.mtenginesusa.com/products.asp?cat=71
They are not a lot quieter than stock exhaust but they fill the bill and they are inexpensive.
Doc

Thanks James, I have those in my other plane and they do ok if managed....

I have a 4 cyl in my current plane and I'm not going to spend $600.00 on the 2 into 1 headers plus the cans when with the stock muffs I got more 10's than I did 5's at the only contest that I have flown the plane in.....

Posted By KnowCrashes on 25 May 2010 19:23
Kent,

Would love to be there.....

But will not cannot under these conditions...

I can speak for myself and my boys, we KNOW how to use the left stick appropriately and are not obnoxious with the throttle.

Matter of fact, we are 3 of only 5 pilots at our club that are approved to fly gas power due to noise concerns of the neighbors. (The field is within a subdivision)

Unless someone calls the wrong manuever...

Thanks for reminding me......

Posted By Kent Porter on 24 May 2010 22:24
Unfortunately it is not my say. Mr. Hartness has the last word on this subject and he is unavailable at this time to answer any questions. I have had a few pilots ask if I would ask for exceptions and I have done this and waiting for a reply. I have climbed out on a limb here so please bare with us as we prepare for this event.

Thanks for understanding,

Kent Porter

Kent,

Any word on the exceptions??

I have an idea, what if you could prove a history in IMAC if getting consistant sound scores of 5-10??

Terry

Looks like this rule has changed, now it looks like you can fly anything but it can NOT be loud.